Red Changes Her Mind

[RedGlitter]

I was thinking about this today and when I feel I'm wrong on something, I have a need to try and correct it.

I'm too lazy to dig them up now but recently Spot and I and some others were involved in a discussion about whether or not it's acceptable for India to use (what is known to most people) the swastika symbol on bedspreads they manufacture. (For them it means something respectable and is not a Nazi symbol) I maintained that it was bad ethics to use swastikas for anything because of the images conjured up and that it was disrespectful to the Holocaust victims and all thinking, feeling people.

Around this same time, there was a thread about nooses appearing in trees at a certain school. I said so what, it was just a noose, and no one got hurt by it, even if it was a symbol of slavery and lynchings. I cited freedom of expression.

Either no one caught that or no one brought it to my attention, not sure which.

So last night, I was on eBay and I came across "black memorabilia" or more honestly called Aunt Jemima/Mammy cookie jars and other decorative items. If you don't know what a Mammy is she's a heavyset black lady in a headscarf and big skirt. Looks like what you might have seen on a plantation a hundred years ago.

There were some cookie jars shaped like little black kids and black minstrels too. I guess this stuff was popular in the 1930s or so.

A lot of people collect these items. And a lot of other people cry racist! Oppression and think Mammy and Little Black Sambo should be looked upon as disrespectful to black people. So I got to drawing parallels about this.

How can a swastika be bad and a Mammy cookie jar be disrespectful when a noose is just freedom of expression?

So I'm changing my mind a bit. I still will probably always see swastikas and think of Nazis. It's ingrained in me. And I'm not so sure those cookie jars are acceptable. And the noose is a tacky thing to have put in a tree. But after thinking about these comparisons, I cannot hold my previous opinion. I have to say it's all freedom of expression.

[spot]

It's a joy to watch your brain cells firing on all cylinders.

Have a quick look back and see if this fits what you're saying.

[RedGlitter]

Yep Spot, that's about the same thing. Even now though after reading that it's making me think too much.:wah: Bringing up more ideas. I can appreciate why a black person would not like a character such as Steppin Fetchit because he portrays blacks in general as dumb and submissive. Yet who's to say *all* blacks are that way? How do we know he's dumb and submissive because he's black and not because that's just his personality? Do whites get upset about Fibber McGee or Freddy Freeloader? Maybe that's a poor example. I guess we have the redneck/hillbilly comparison and we do get upset about that, generally.

I have to think a bit more on this so that I don't start rambling. I'll be back.

[Patsy Warnick]

RED

Good for you

Some symbols just hit a nerve, so I'd have to agree with you.

As far as the cookie jar - no longer manufactured and highly sought after for collectors.

Restaurants named Sambo's - no longer exist, changed names.

We're all sensitive and we're trying to adjust with changes.

I really try not to take things so personal - its not always easy.

That cookie jar - looks like my Great Grandmother.

Patsy

[Indian Princess]

I agree, you are a big hearted and intelligent person to have stated you are wrong, but, do Iget upset when my brother called me a hootch drinkin injun!!! Nope, just smiled and said your pissed cause your kid is 1/2 lebonese,and Cherokee indian, and then your 1/2 whatever you are, but you are not bow and arrow certified injun!!!!!!!!:wah::wah::wah:nope freedom of speech baby!!!!

[Indian Princess]

oh and for the record this hooch drinkin injun drinks: say it with me Jimbo, and Abbey:



JACK DANIELS

[Pheasy]

RedGlitter;722913 wrote: I was thinking about this today and when I feel I'm wrong on something, I have a need to try and correct it.

I'm too lazy to dig them up now but recently Spot and I and some others were involved in a discussion about whether or not it's acceptable for India to use (what is known to most people) the swastika symbol on bedspreads they manufacture. (For them it means something respectable and is not a Nazi symbol) I maintained that it was bad ethics to use swastikas for anything because of the images conjured up and that it was disrespectful to the Holocaust victims and all thinking, feeling people.

Around this same time, there was a thread about nooses appearing in trees at a certain school. I said so what, it was just a noose, and no one got hurt by it, even if it was a symbol of slavery and lynchings. I cited freedom of expression.

Either no one caught that or no one brought it to my attention, not sure which.

So last night, I was on eBay and I came across "black memorabilia" or more honestly called Aunt Jemima/Mammy cookie jars and other decorative items. If you don't know what a Mammy is she's a heavyset black lady in a headscarf and big skirt. Looks like what you might have seen on a plantation a hundred years ago.

There were some cookie jars shaped like little black kids and black minstrels too. I guess this stuff was popular in the 1930s or so.

A lot of people collect these items. And a lot of other people cry racist! Oppression and think Mammy and Little Black Sambo should be looked upon as disrespectful to black people. So I got to drawing parallels about this.

How can a swastika be bad and a Mammy cookie jar be disrespectful when a noose is just freedom of expression?

So I'm changing my mind a bit. I still will probably always see swastikas and think of Nazis. It's ingrained in me. And I'm not so sure those cookie jars are acceptable. And the noose is a tacky thing to have put in a tree. But after thinking about these comparisons, I cannot hold my previous opinion. I have to say it's all freedom of expression.




I never really got into this thread Red. So really have no idea about what was being said nor the feelings/beliefs being debated. It takes a special kind of person to rethink their views and consider the views of others. And to then admit that maybe they wanted to change their mind.

Well, I didn't need to read this thread to know that you are a compassionate and caring person. Something I have known for a long time. It is an honour to call you my friend Terri :-4

[Indian Princess]

Red you know we have your back, and we can always use Jimbos bald head as a blindness diversion, he wont mind he loves ya too.

[Chezzie]

very thought provoking thread RG...Glad you felt you could share your new views on these subjects with us in such a detailed and informed manner.......Im always for freedom of speech and each to their own but you always have to be respectful of others opinions too, which you are doing, so well done you:-4

[Lon]

When I was a kid in the early 40's we had our Sunday hotcakes from what else but Aunt Jemima Pancake Mix.

[Indian Princess]

Ip runs around like a lunatic, jumping up and down on the couch, running in the field shouting"Lons Here, Lons Here"

So where ya been big guy, holding out on us, uh ,huh, you have a REALlife!



Ha Ha, just kidding, it's great too see you Lon, hope your Thanksgiving is wonderful and safe.

[RedGlitter]

Yep...we Mrs. Butterworth. And I ate at Little Black Sambo's. Now it's almost bad manners to admit that.

[Joe]

The swastika symbol is indeed an ancient & respected symbol in some cultures. However the Nazi party gave it a whole new meaning worldwide, & the Nazi links to the symbol may now be far more promenant in people's memories than what the symbol meant before they took it.



I would be very uncomfortable seeing swastika symbols on any modern items of linen or furniture.



The big black mamma cookie jars could be a problem too. They show a fat black woman & you have to think how others would perceive the role she's being represented in. A domestic servant? A person of an inferior culture? Someone to patronise, maybe in extremes to laugh at.



Again it could make for difficult social situations, & it could, however indirectly, imply a sort of racism. Are cookie jars sold in the form of fat white woman domestics too?

[Patsy Warnick]

Joe

The black mamma cookie jar was a symbol of a domestic servant - as a slave from a plantation owner, as my Great grandmother was - so my Grandfather was a plantation baby. Racial now yes.

Am I offended about the symbol now - no.

Are cookie jars made of fat white woman - probably, since cookie jars come in all figures - shapes & sizes.

We had a discussion on this swastika symbol, and yes several of us were offended - it hits a nerve, probably always will.

Generations from now won't have any idea the nerve these symbols hit.

Patsy

[watermark]

I do think that Sambo images and Aunt Jemima labels are racist. I won't buy the latter to this day and never saw a Sambo restaurant myself. I did hear of a Brer Rabbit story that included sambo. I don't read those either because the story is derogatory. I remember the einey meiney mieny mo, pick a nigger by the ... chant to determine the first to go in and about the place I grew up. Never did like that town . Racism was and actually still is rampant in our culture and most all these American images are racist and imply inferiority.

But that cookie jar?? I would love to have that cookie jar- absolutely beautiful! I think the color and shape is what I like the most. I find the piece iconic, attractive and desirable. Maybe in the same way that Patsy Warnick finds Betty Crocker plaid attractive.

E

[RedGlitter]

Joe;723022 wrote: The swastika symbol is indeed an ancient & respected symbol in some cultures. However the Nazi party gave it a whole new meaning worldwide, & the Nazi links to the symbol may now be far more promenant in people's memories than what the symbol meant before they took it.



I would be very uncomfortable seeing swastika symbols on any modern items of linen or furniture.



The big black mamma cookie jars could be a problem too. They show a fat black woman & you have to think how others would perceive the role she's being represented in. A domestic servant? A person of an inferior culture? Someone to patronise, maybe in extremes to laugh at.



Again it could make for difficult social situations, & it could, however indirectly, imply a sort of racism. Are cookie jars sold in the form of fat white woman domestics too?


I've really been thinking on these things mentioned. I have seen cookie jars and other things in the image of fat white chefs and Mexicans on siesta...is that bad? This will probably come out all wrong but the more PC we become, the more I am becoming convinced that being "black" is not PC! Like there's something wrong with it. Just to take the cookie jar as an example, there are (and were) a lot of heavy black ladies. Would we be happier if the cookie jar was a skinny black lady? Or perhaps not dressed as a servant? Is there something wrong with being a large woman?

Take Uncle Remus now. I grew up with that book and listening to adults try to read it was a hoot! :wah: What upsets us about that book? Probably the language because it's considered ignorant. Well, in Uncle Remus' days that dialect was probably common and he wrote down what he knew. Not all black people speak like that but some do (look into Gullah- very fascinating) so why does that upset us? It's just reality.

Why was Sambo's restaurant a bad thing? They had good food and featured a cute little black boy and his tiger. What was the negative message there? Don't they have tigers in Africa?

I think sometimes it's so easy to be PC just for the sake of being PC, that we often forget to think...and to think for ourselves. What do you think so far? Am I close or off the mark?

[RedGlitter]

Patsy Warnick;723042 wrote: Joe

The black mamma cookie jar was a symbol of a domestic servant - as a slave from a plantation owner, as my Great grandmother was - so my Grandfather was a plantation baby. Racial now yes.

Am I offended about the symbol now - no.

Are cookie jars made of fat white woman - probably, since cookie jars come in all figures - shapes & sizes.

We had a discussion on this swastika symbol, and yes several of us were offended - it hits a nerve, probably always will.

Generations from now won't have any idea the nerve these symbols hit.

Patsy


I didn't know that, Patsy. About your great grandmother. I'd like to hear about her sometime if you wouldn't mind talking about it.

That's true- they hit a nerve for sure. As for other generations not fully realizing the impact of what these things have stood for, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

watermark;723045 wrote: I do think that Sambo images and Aunt Jemima labels are racist. I won't buy the latter to this day and never saw a Sambo restaurant myself. I did hear of a Brer Rabbit story that included sambo. I don't read those either because the story is derogatory. I remember the einey meiney mieny mo, pick a nigger by the ... chant to determine the first to go in and about the place I grew up. Never did like that town . Racism was and actually still is rampant in our culture and most all these American images are racist and imply inferiority.

But that cookie jar?? I would love to have that cookie jar- absolutely beautiful! I think the color and shape is what I like the most. I find the piece iconic, attractive and desirable. Maybe in the same way that Patsy Warnick finds Betty Crocker plaid attractive.

E


That is such a good point about you appreciating the cookie jar on its artistic merit. In the swastika thread, Spot had posted a photo of some kind of wall decoration that was, I believe, two snakes in the shape of a swastika and asked if it should be for sale. It was a replica of some ancient symbol that came before Naziism, if I remember correctly. I had trouble answering because he had a very good point. Same as you do with the cookie jar.

[Patsy Warnick]

RED

No, your not off the mark - its just a sensative world now, most anything will offend someone.

Joe - as far as my Great Grandmother - I was very young, I remember her coming over to our house - she was a big black woman, at the time that was the biggest woman I'd ever seen - she scared me. Loud - oh she was loud & very loving at the same time (comforting).

I have her loud laugh - I'm told its a genuine laugh from the stomach.

She also wore the scarf.

I don't know if its a good or bad idea that the up & coming generations will not referr to symbols as negative or I should say reflect on those symbols for what they were for me/us. - I hope the generations to come will stop the racial distance that I grew up with.

Patsy