So help me God .......

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:06 am

Pheasy has been having another of her random thoughts

Do people still have to swear on the bible in court ? Do they still say about promising to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me God? And do they still put their hand on the bible?

What if someone says they don't believe in God? Do the courts care? Do they still make them do it? Is there an alternative?

Random thought over and out ......

Post by **spot** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:21 am

ThePheasant;741590 wrote: Do people still have to swear on the bible in court ?

In England since time immemorial unbelievers and silly people have been allowed to affirm using the following oath: "Cocktail, ginger ale, five cents a glass, if you don't believe me you can shove it [oath deleted by moderator]". The jury is rarely prepared to perform the action appropriate to rejecting the testimony so everyone proceeds on the basis that the evidence is truthful.

PurpleChicken · Post by **PurpleChicken** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:10 am

I recently had to attend court as an expert witness for work. Had to swear on the bible before giving evidence. Found it kinda strange, and actually had a fairly similar random thought. I'm not sure that it has the same connotation in society these days....

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:56 am

jimbo;741627 wrote: i wished you happy birthday ... funnily enough on your birthday and no one believed you existed

i'm glad you do

:D

I almost pm'd you !!!:wah::wah:

It is very nice to see you posting Purple Chicken!!:-6:-6

My thought on swearing on the bible is that its not taken seriously....people lie all the time and don't care and don't get penalized...at least thats how it seems to me....personal experience.....

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:41 am

I believe in the states nonbelievers have a separate oath, Pheasy.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:43 am

i had to get a sworn court statement regarding my employmenta nd i was asked to swear on the bible that what i said was true.

Although I do not consider myself religious, i am not sure i would have lied with my hand on the bible, it was a most strange feeling - like it really meant something.

Post by **spot** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:54 am

I'm quite sure that the provisions in the US match those in the UK. You can go from cradle to grave here without any mention of God or the bible if that's your preference, there are humanist alternatives to all of it - including taking the oath in court where you're actually asked by the clerk whether you'd prefer to swear or to affirm and where both are equally binding in law.

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:00 am

I found this also...

http://members.aol.com/TestOath/10help_us.htm

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:27 am

Thats interesting, I wasn't sure if there were provisions in place for non-believers.

It all seems a bit of a farce anyway. I mean, you are either going to go and tell the truth or lie your pants off. Who is going to question who you promised about telling the truth. Basically if you lie in court you have committed a crime and pay the penalty.

The wording 'so help me God' implies that you will be judged and punished for lying ,by God

So if you don't believe mmmmm

does that mean you will only get punished by the court. Whereas if you do believe, you will get double punishment - from the court and him upstairs.

Crikes! I confused myself now :-5

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:35 am

I agree that it seems like a farce.

I had to swear under oath and for a month I reminded my attorney that I was not christian and would not be swearing on any bible. When the time came he "forgot" and I was asked to swear on a book I didn't believe in. So since it meant nothing to me, I did it but I resented that my beliefs were overridden.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:05 am

If you swear on the bible and are not a believer then surely you are already a liar? If you are prepared to lie at that point then why should anyone believe the rest of your testimony? since clearly you are prepared to lie for expediency

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:11 am

i don't know that what i did was lying exactly.

Although I may not believe, plenty of people do and the bible is a major and powerful symbol in our society so by swearing on it what i was saying was,

i abide by the laws of our country and i stand in line with the beliefs of most of my countrymen.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:18 am

gmc;741713 wrote: If you swear on the bible and are not a believer then surely you are already a liar? If you are prepared to lie at that point then why should anyone believe the rest of your testimony? since clearly you are prepared to lie for expediency

Not at all. I had already said I did not adhere to anyone's bible. The simple fact is that it was not applicable to me.

PurpleChicken · Post by **PurpleChicken** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:51 am

jimbo;741627 wrote: i wished you happy birthday ... funnily enough on your birthday and no one believed you existed :-6:-6

i'm glad you do

:D

Heya Jimbo, I actually just found the email and it was actually you that brought me back!! (tried to PM you but your inbox was full). Think I have been gone from here about 18months. Things have changed a bit but there's still the familiar sounds. It's great to be back!! :-6

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:55 am

Welcome back PC :-6

kumininexile · Post by **kumininexile** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:28 am

lemon_and_mint;741682 wrote: i had to get a sworn court statement regarding my employmenta nd i was asked to swear on the bible that what i said was true.

Although I do not consider myself religious, i am not sure i would have lied with my hand on the bible, it was a most strange feeling - like it really meant something.

Evidently, you're a Believer. I'm like that, too.

Indian Princess · Post by **Indian Princess** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:17 am

I was subpenod, (ok totally spelled that wrong) too appear, I knew it was comming and dodged the court server until he was pissed!!! He served me twice for the same case, like that made alot of sense!!!!

Yes, I had too put my hand on the bible and swear too tell the truth, the plantiffs lawyer kept saying "I object" too my answere, the judge laughed and stated"Counselor she is YOUR witness" I loved it. :wah::wah:

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:38 am

RedGlitter;741729 wrote: Not at all. I had already said I did not adhere to anyone's bible. The simple fact is that it was not applicable to me.

Sorry if i gave offence. It was a generic question not specifically aimed at anyone.

I'd be surprised if there was no provision for non-believers in the US. If there isn't the implication is that only Christians are capable of telling the truth and a specific type of Christian at that. It would also mean that if you had a non christian as a witness they wouldn't be able to testify in court. I think I'd have gone for another lawyer as clearly he wasn't listening to what you said.

We're having fun just now with the oath of allegiance to her majesty with one or two republicans getting elected-not just irish ones you see.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:34 pm

gmc;743935 wrote: Sorry if i gave offence. It was a generic question not specifically aimed at anyone.

I'd be surprised if there was no provision for non-believers in the US. If there isn't the implication is that only Christians are capable of telling the truth and a specific type of Christian at that. It would also mean that if you had a non christian as a witness they wouldn't be able to testify in court. I think I'd have gone for another lawyer as clearly he wasn't listening to what you said.

We're having fun just now with the oath of allegiance to her majesty with one or two republicans getting elected-not just irish ones you see.

Oh you didn't offend me, gmc, not at all. I'm sorry if I came across like that. I can do that sometimes, as you know.

I just found this article that may be helpful: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06222/712484-85.stm

regarding oaths.

I'm going to show my ignorance here but do your schoolchildren have to say any type of pledge like ours have to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

Post by **spot** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:08 pm

RedGlitter;744324 wrote: I'm going to show my ignorance here but do your schoolchildren have to say any type of pledge like ours have to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
There are 100,000 scouts in the UK and they recite the Scout Promise at meetings:On My Honour, I promise that I will do my best

To do my duty to God and to the Queen,

To help other people

And to keep the Scout LawOther than that there's nothing remotely similar short of signing the Official Secrets Act.