seal cull to go ahead in canada

AA grumpy · Post by **AA grumpy** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:24 pm

good evening welcome along to another late night cuddle up to grumpy.

the contraversial seal cull will go ahead in canada dispite an eu proposed ban on seal products.

the hunters who either club or shoot the seals in the head are now being told to cut the arteries under the flipper to ensure the seal is dead not stunned before it is skinned.

animal rights groups say this is adding bleeding to a needless cull.

AAG

i normaly class animal rights, greenpeace, friends of the earth, etc as the beard and sandalls brigade or teachers college lecturers or long haired unwashed lay about students.

but tonight im going to surprise you by agreeing with them all.

the uk neighbouring america and the rest of the world should join in the worldwide condemnation of canada.s seal cull.

we humans do not need to kill these defenceless mammals just because we can.

we do not need seal products and i hope that the eu bans seal products and that groups such as animal rights, greenpeace, friends of the earth,

can do what they can to obstruct the cull and perhaps one day the seals can be left in peace.

AAG

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:50 pm

Are seals endangered?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:18 pm

Accountable;816293 wrote: Are seals endangered?No, it's not so much they do it, it's the way they do it ACC.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:14 am

Generally, a cull is for thinning a herd. We had that debate in Louisiana concerning our deer. The population was so heavy that there wasn't enough of a food supply. Hunting helps keep the overall herd healthy.

Is this instance different?

Post by **spot** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:21 am

I doubt it. I'm baffled at what annoys people. Given a choice between either permanently saving a breeding population of something at the top of the food chain or a million of the current humans on the planet I'd go for animal conservation every time, but criticizing a seal cull is just plain backward.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:45 am

It all comes down to supply & demand, if there isn’t a market for the stuff there is not need for the business.

Don’t blame the Canadian hunters if rich Americans like to wear their seal skin fur coats.

Also, the last time they stopped the seal cull the Cod stocks in the grand banks off of Newfoundland were almost wiped out because the over populated seal population were eating all of the Cod. (Or should I say they were cutting in on the human % of wiping out the cod.)

AA grumpy · Post by **AA grumpy** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:36 am

so does canada go ahead with the seal cull to protect fish stocks ?

if they must be culled then there must be a more humane way of killing these mammals rather than clubbing which i personally think barbaric.

if it must be done a bullet to the head then

one clean shot to the head?

what do you think?.

i didnt know there was a reason for the cull i stand corrected.

AAG

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:30 pm

spot;816344 wrote: I doubt it. I'm baffled at what annoys people. Given a choice between either permanently saving a breeding population of something at the top of the food chain or a million of the current humans on the planet I'd go for animal conservation every time, but criticizing a seal cull is just plain backward.
Call me backward then.

The idea of clubbing seal cubs to death abhors me.

Post by **spot** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:51 pm

How would you prefer them to die, Abbey? Nature's alternative is mass starvation ofter they do a lot of environmental damage. The point of the cull is to reduce suffering, not to impose it. By all means offer an alternative here.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:48 pm

spot;817365 wrote: How would you prefer them to die, Abbey? Nature's alternative is mass starvation ofter they do a lot of environmental damage. The point of the cull is to reduce suffering, not to impose it. By all means offer an alternative here.Clean shot to the head opposed to them having their brains beat in maybe.

Post by **spot** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:22 pm

That's what they do, nearly all the seals are killed from boats because they're on ice which it too dangerous to walk on. Far fewer are taken on land. The propagandists egg a few die-hard psychotics into clubbing a few baby seals for the press photos and the whole world's up in arms over it.

There's three times as many seals on the Eastern Canadian coast as there were a generation ago.

The cull takes 4% of them a year to stop the population rising even higher. That's four seals out of every hundred. This isn't extermination, this is low volume and selective.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:36 pm

AA grumpy;817255 wrote: so does canada go ahead with the seal cull to protect fish stocks ?

if they must be culled then there must be a more humane way of killing these mammals rather than clubbing which i personally think barbaric.

if it must be done a bullet to the head then

one clean shot to the head?

what do you think?.

i didnt know there was a reason for the cull i stand corrected.

AAG

Sure there is but clubbing is much more fun!! Just kidding.

I fully understand the disgust with this, but face it; it looks particularly gross because these animals are killed on the nice white snow, which make for a horrendous backdrop for all of that blood.

Can you image if a slaughter house for cattle took place out doors in a field of snow?

Human are barbaric, and we have completely screwed up the balance of nature and now we need to manage populations of animals. I wonder what it would be like if we needed to start culling humans. Oh wait a minute, we do, only we call it genocide.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:42 pm

I don't know exactly how to limit the population of these beautiful seals...perhaps birth control. I just think that it's inhumane to bash in the heads of the beautiful animals because of over population. Should we also bash in the heads of people who live in populated countries?

It breaks my heart and really makes me cry when I see this disgusting treatment done to this lovely animal. There has to be an alternative to this type of culling:-1

I'm with you on this one Grump-6

Post by **spot** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:03 pm

Kathy, have you any idea how many pigs die in the US each year? They're each a lot nicer than the average seal, they're more clever, they even have a sense of humour. You eat them, for goodness' sake!

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:15 pm

spot;817430 wrote: Kathy, have you any idea how many pigs die in the US each year? They're each a lot nicer than the average seal, they're more clever, they even have a sense of humour. You eat them, for goodness' sake!

Spot, I understand what you're saying about eating meat....I do eat meat and wear leather shoes. I know that there is a reason for culling and understand this concept, but will never, ever understand the "joys of hunting." I just wish there were more humane ways to stopping overpopulation of animals rather than bashing their heads in....

Post by **spot** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:33 pm

Then there's one simple change you need to accept and then you'll never have a problem with this again. The "hunters", as you call them, don't like doing it but it has to be done. They grieve at the killing but accept that it's by far the most humane process which avoids mass starvation of the little furry baby seals next year. The people with the rifles aren't there for enjoyment. Nobody subsidizes their necessary actions, they sell the skins to balance their books and maybe make something to compensate for their time effort and distress.

It's not a sport.

You can get a dozen psychopaths to drink a can of beer each and club anything on the planet if you offer them enough publicity. Why would anyone think those few people are representative? I'd have them arrested, together with the paparazzi who egged them on.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:46 pm

spot;817445 wrote: Then there's one simple change you need to accept and then you'll never have a problem with this again. The "hunters", as you call them, don't like doing it but it has to be done. They grieve at the killing but accept that it's by far the most humane process which avoids mass starvation of the little furry baby seals next year. The people with the rifles aren't there for enjoyment. Nobody subsidizes their necessary actions, they sell the skins to balance their books and maybe make something to compensate for their time effort and distress.

It's not a sport.

You can get a dozen psychopaths to drink a can of beer each and club anything on the planet if you offer them enough publicity. Why would anyone think those few people are representative? I'd have them arrested, together with the paparazzi who egged them on.

Thank you Spot, I honestly thought it was hunters killing the seals for their furs to sell. If I knew it was culling by professionals, then I wouldn't have objected. Guess I have to read more up to date new and not speak from the "arse."

Thanks for clearing that up Spot:-6

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:56 pm

Watch Video: GRAPHIC CONTENT Canadian seal hunt

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:35 am

abbey;817662 wrote: Watch Video: GRAPHIC CONTENT Canadian seal hunt

You win. My earlier posts were kind of messing around a bit, but I agree it is discusting and there should be a more humane way of doing this if indeed it is needed.

My main point though, as also stated in the video, is that the seal is mostly used for ornaments for human purchase, and fur coats and so forth. The conflict (as per normal) is that the fight is in the wrong direction. There is no point going after the Canadian government or the seal hunters as long as there is a viable market. Economics rule, it always does.

Go after the companies that sell seal fur, go after the celebrities that wear seal fur, go after the consumers who buy seal parts for decorations.

Remove the need for the hunt and limit it only to a cull (if even required).

AA grumpy · Post by **AA grumpy** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:45 am

abbey;817662 wrote: Watch Video: GRAPHIC CONTENT Canadian seal hunt

barbaric i am for once totally speechless!!!

AAG

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:56 pm

Thank you Abbey for sharing the video. It was absolutely disgusting and heart breaking. I don't hear too much lately in the American papers about harp seal hunting and did think they were now killed due to culling reasons which I understand why we need to do that....... sometimes.

This type of killing is inhumane, and I will be reading more updated news about this barbaric behavior.

AA grumpy · Post by **AA grumpy** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:26 pm

Jester;818123 wrote: Ok I held my peace long enough.

If your a human and you dont like seals being killed dont buy seal products, the market will shrink.

If your a human and you like seal products or you like to eat fish cught off the coast of canada and you dont like the method that is used to kill the seals then you better find something different to rub on your skin, wear, or eat fish from another source.

Walking up and clubbing a seal ensures it suffers much less than walking up and shooting it in the head, or shooting it from the shoreline and having it suffer as it flops around on the shore to dump in the sea to be scooped up in a net. If the man misses and partially hits the skull of the seal he can quickly strike it again and end its suffuring. I imagine that for quikness they get pretty accurate at seal head bashing, so they can shorten thier time on the ice and get to where its warm. (I do undestand there may be a few newbies to seal head bashing that may take some pleasure it it at first, but after you bashed your 15th seal, its a job like all others).

Leave the seal workers to themselves, let them do thier job, let them help both the fishmarket and ensure what they take is used and sold and not wasted for the sheer pleasure fo killing.

Stay out of it and let the market dictate the process.

i totally disagree jester what you are suggesting is just barbaric why not a rifle with a telescopic sight this will ensure accuricy.

AAG

minks · Post by **minks** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:57 pm

not exactly pleasant reading.

Why do hunters club seals?

It's safe and easy, and it preserves the seal's valuable pelt. Federal laws in Canada give a sealer three ways to hunt his prey. He can shoot a seal with a rifle or shotgun—provided it's above a minimum caliber or gauge; he can break its head with a blunt club (like a baseball bat) that must be at least 2 feet long; or he can smash in its brains with something called a hakapik—a 4- or 5-foot wooden pole with a bent, metal spike affixed to the end.

In general, a sealer will use a hakapik or club if at all possible. That's because with these weapons, it's much easier to aim a blow directly at the seal pup's head. One swing from a hakapik will usually kill a pup right away. By law, you have to keep clubbing the seal in the forehead until you know for sure that it's dead. Sealers are supposed to "palpate" a pup's skull after they've clubbed it, to feel the caved-in bone beneath the skin and blubber. Or they can perform the "blink reflex" test, which consists of touching the seal's eyeball—if it blinks, you've got to club it again. (Few sealers actually perform these tests, though; some say they can feel the skull collapse as they make contact with their clubs.)

A sealer chooses his weapon depending on the conditions of the hunt. You can only club a seal if you can climb down on to the ice next to it, but the ice isn't always sturdy enough to support a full-grown man and his hakapik. On the off-shore hunting grounds near Newfoundland, the seal pups tend to sit on small, unstable pieces of ice, so sealers must use rifles to kill them. On the other major hunting ground—the Gulf of St. Lawrence, where the hunt began on Saturday—the hunters take advantage of larger floes to leave their vessels with clubs in hand. Conditions also vary from year to year: This season's warm weather has led to thin ice shelves in the gulf, so hunters have had to use their rifles much more than they typically would.

Why not just shoot the baby seals? When you're firing from a boat that's bobbing in the water, it's hard to get a good shot. And if you don't hit the seal in the head, you're less likely to kill it quickly. That means you'll either prolong its suffering (until you can get close enough to club it), or, worse, you'll give it the chance to shuffle off into the water with its pelt still on. Even if you killed a seal with a shot to the body, you'd cost yourself some money, since each bullet hole reduces the value of a pelt. Sealers also say that stray bullets can ricochet off the ice and injure bystanders.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:37 pm

All that sounds like self justification to me, aka excuses. If those hunters have evolved so much let them come up with a better way. Those hakapiks have hooks on the ends and wreak havoc on a seal's cranium. Surely that's not preserving the whole pelt.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:40 pm

Jester;818123 wrote: Ok I held my peace long enough.

Stay out of it and let the market dictate the process.

Me too.

Let the market dictate the process? No way. Anytime you put living creatures, human or animal up against money, the living lose. Money and greed will always prevail as the main lines of "humanity."

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:21 pm

Jester;818606 wrote: Red, its good to see you here! (even if we disagree)

You too Jester and thank you.

I have to disagree with you about the soul thing though and murder....for religious reasons...but we can probably agree to disagree on that one. What I had meant was that human greed would win out over the animals' value every time...because we act like we are the most important species on the planet. We have completely forgotten our place. The ecosystem is messed up as it is because of...humans.

cars · Post by **cars** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:41 am

RedGlitter;818623 wrote: You too Jester and thank you.

I have to disagree with you about the soul thing though and murder....for religious reasons...but we can probably agree to disagree on that one. What I had meant was that human greed would win out over the animals' value every time...because we act like we are the most important species on the planet. We have completely forgotten our place. The ecosystem is messed up as it is because of...humans.

Well Hi Red, it sure is good to see you're back!:)

As the old saying goes: "Money" is the root of all evil!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:28 am

Hi Red! :yh_hugs

Its good to see the Break-a-Seal/Burp-a-Seal crowds getting along so cordially. Tupperware would be proud.

Is there a market for seal meat? Who eats seal besides the Eskimo?

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:39 am

Accountable;818670 wrote: Is there a market for seal meat? Who eats seal besides the Eskimo?spot eagerly puts his hand up, quails at the sight of so many frowns turned toward him and shuffles quietly out of the thread before someone starts throwing stones

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:49 am

spot eagerly puts his hand up, quails at the sight of so many frowns turned toward him and shuffles quietly out of the thread before someone starts throwing stones

:wah::wah::wah:

So THAT's what's in the squishy packages they pass around in Royston Vasey!

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:19 am

Don't ask, don't tell!

Mmm, blubber.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:40 am

Jester;818609 wrote: Read Minks well written post... shes got the answer.

I'm siding with the seal hunters on this one, its thier livelyhood on the deck, as Red said humans win out everytime, and for me I tend to agree on that one. If the animal had a soul it would be murder, but it doesnt. Its basicly food for humans.

PROVE THEY HAVEN'T GOT A SOUL !!!!! All creatures with a heart and brain have a soul !!!

Somebody said one of the reasons for culling seals was because fish stocks were getting low. I have never heard such a load of twaddle in my life ! I think you will find that the human is responsible for the depleting fish stock. Seals only catch enough fish that they immediately need - to live. Humans catch net fulls of fish, and throw any unwanted or wrong sized fish back into the sea ---------- dead !

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:13 am

G#Gill;819022 wrote: PROVE THEY HAVEN'T GOT A SOUL !!!!! All creatures with a heart and brain have a soul !!!

Somebody said one of the reasons for culling seals was because fish stocks were getting low. I have never heard such a load of twaddle in my life ! I think you will find that the human is responsible for the depleting fish stock. Seals only catch enough fish that they immediately need - to live. Humans catch net fulls of fish, and throw any unwanted or wrong sized fish back into the sea ---------- dead !
Gill, to know what has a soul you have to agree an authority on what the word means. Who will you accept as an authority? The Pope maybe? You nominate an acceptable authority and we'll find out what has a soul, how's that. You're not an authority, I'm not an authority and unless Jester is really the Dalai Lama in disguise (being known for his sense of humour) Jester's not an authority either.

One of the reasons for culling seals was because fish stocks were getting low. Not "one of the reasons for culling seals was because fish stocks were getting low because the seals were eating all the fish". Are the fish stocks getting low? Yes? Then do the numbers of seas eating fish need to be controlled to prevent mass starvation and allow a return to normal of the fish stock levels? Yes?

Tell me, will you settle on the Christian Bible for a definition of what has a soul, how's that?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:07 am

Hi Cars! Hi Accountable! Good to see you both!

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:04 am

SPOT

My 'authority' is 'Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary'

SOUL:- sol, n. life (obs.): that which thinks, feels, desires, etc.: the ego: a spirit, embodied or

disembodied: innermost being or nature: that which one identifies with oneself: moral

and emotional nature, power, or sensibility: nobleness of spirit or its sincere expression:

a complete embodiment or exemplification: an element: essence: the essential part:

an indwelling or animating principle: the moving spirit ............ etc..........................

I still say that seals are not to blame for the dwindling fish stock - it is the human race over-fishing.

So this cannot be a reason for culling seals. It is purely for money.

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:09 am

A dictionary? That's such a cop-out, especially in selecting one with so little detail in it. Can we not at least use a dictionary with quotes from context?

What's wrong with a religious authority - like, as I suggested, the Christian Bible? The concept of "soul" is, after all, an entirely religious one.

As for "seals are not to blame for the dwindling fish stock" - everyone in the entire thread has consistently said that! The reason is to reduce seal suffering and to encourage fish stock recovery, in that seals are definitely responsible for keeping the current reduced fish stocks low. To have a fish stock recovery the fish need to be left in peace for a number of years and we all need to cross our fingers.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:58 am

Actually Spot, it would be more to the point if humans were restricted in their fishing activities. As I have already said in a previous post, there is a huge waste of fish by throwing back into the sea, unwanted and wrong-sized fish, and of course these poor fish are now dead ........................ pointless.

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:43 pm

'catch limits fishing newfoundland' gives 212,000 google hits, you can't seriously think there aren't restrictions imposed already.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:58 pm

Oh gosh, Spot, I had no idea !!!! :rolleyes:

Post by **spot** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:02 pm

Gill, you really do just argue continuously sometimes. Look at what you wrote. "it would be more to the point if humans were restricted in their fishing activities". Then look at what I wrote. Mine's relevant to yours. How does "Oh gosh, Spot, I had no idea" tie in with "it would be more to the point if humans were restricted in their fishing activities"?

You were just the same with the maniac on that Hamburg landing.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:18 pm

Spot, I am just putting my opinion down. I thought that was what it was all about !

I hardly think it is relevant dragging stuff up which has no bearing on this present subject.

Why are you sniping at me like that ?

You addressed a post to me, so I felt obliged to answer 'in my opinion' etc etc.

Oh well.

Just please leave me alone. Perhaps you should go on the thread 'too much love on Forum Garden'

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:28 pm

spot;819468 wrote: 'catch limits fishing newfoundland' gives 212,000 google hits, you can't seriously think there aren't restrictions imposed already.

My 'Oh gosh Spot, I had no idea !' .....:rolleyes:

Was referring to this post of yours, not any other !!

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:44 pm

Hi Jester:-6

Seriously, if one wants to believe that an animal has a soul, what's wrong with that..... Not trying to start an argument here because I am not religious, but I don't believe that anyone can really prove that there is a heaven, hell or afterlife. So if one chooses to believe in animals having souls then that's fine. I often wonder why we always have to prove our beliefs.