What's a soul? What's a spirit? Do they exist? I would like to see someone prove the existence of these things.
What we do know is people/animals exist around us. Should we not care about those we see, those who exist in our everyday life. Just care about life around us -- right now?
That seem like a decent thing to do.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
We hear people say from time to time-----"Oh, she is so mean spirited" and "That baby is such a happy soul", "Soul Food", "Sold his soul to the Devil", "He's an old soul", "Full of spirit", "Good spirit".
It's easier to define and believe in spirit because spirit can be demonstrated.
Soul on the other hand cannot. It's an adjective that is used and means different things to different people. I am not one of them.
It's easier to define and believe in spirit because spirit can be demonstrated.
Soul on the other hand cannot. It's an adjective that is used and means different things to different people. I am not one of them.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
JAB;819681 wrote: How does one prove a feeling? :-3
We can't. But we have to know if it is good or bad. Is it guidance? Is it our personality? It's all about being a decent person - through guidance or gutt feeling. Does it matter?
We can't. But we have to know if it is good or bad. Is it guidance? Is it our personality? It's all about being a decent person - through guidance or gutt feeling. Does it matter?
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Jester;819687 wrote: I dont know if it proves whether we have a soul/spirit or not but it occurs to me I have a conscience, that allows me a process where I determine moral right and wrong, and that component has a major decision making part of my 'will' my volitional will is what I call my soul more than anything. Its different from animals because their will is based on instinct only.
Whether an animal has a soul or not I still think we ought to be decent to them, but then again I have to say when man needs them for food we need to use them as humanly as possible.
How is soul important?
Whether an animal has a soul or not I still think we ought to be decent to them, but then again I have to say when man needs them for food we need to use them as humanly as possible.
How is soul important?
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
For some of us believers proof is moot. My take: God made every living thing with a soul, the divine spark that animates us. To say that humans have one and animals don't because they are somehow lesser, is an insult to the God I believe in. That's as far as I'm going with my personal beliefs. 
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
RedGlitter;819696 wrote: For some of us believers proof is moot. My take: God made every living thing with a soul, the divine spark that animates us. To say that humans have one and animals don't because they are somehow lesser, is an insult to the God I believe in. That's as far as I'm going with my personal beliefs.
Well I think its all crud unless it's worth something -and that's what god is try to say but people arn't getting it :-5
Well I think its all crud unless it's worth something -and that's what god is try to say but people arn't getting it :-5
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Jester;819705 wrote: I just know what I call my soul... I know I have one its is me, who I am, my body is not me I know that. I know my spirit (soul) has a relationship spiritually with God, so to me thats very important.
I'm not here to lecture folks or to be dogmatic I'm just saying what I think. And I really did not start this thread to determine if animals have one or not. I was seperatig it out from the seal thread so Spot could have a place to discuss it since its a subject that Ive considered in the past.
Is that not what it is all about .... just stay with real life and then it's okay :-4
I'm not here to lecture folks or to be dogmatic I'm just saying what I think. And I really did not start this thread to determine if animals have one or not. I was seperatig it out from the seal thread so Spot could have a place to discuss it since its a subject that Ive considered in the past.
Is that not what it is all about .... just stay with real life and then it's okay :-4
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Jester;819710 wrote: I guess, but then when the real definiton comes round and we compare ourselves to it, we can see what it is, I know what the bible says it is, but my meaning is personalized!
Hang on ... what ? :wah: What are you saying Jester ?
Hang on ... what ? :wah: What are you saying Jester ?
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
The idea of spirit is a bit like the idea of conciousness, everyone knows what it means, but actually even trying to define precisely what it is, or could be, is actually impossible. The ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and others had no sense of spirit in the way that we do, and certainly not the same idea of immortality in a place called heaven, though they did believe in a spirit world and ghosts and all of that.
Christian philosophers from St Augustine, to Aquinas have all wrestled with this idea, without ever satisfactorily coming to any conclusion to it. In the modern era, its not something taken seriously by scientists or philosophers in their professional lives, though some still have strong views on the idea of having a soul and that being linking in with morality and all the rest of it.
To be honest I don't think that people's personalities survive death, thats not to say that there isn't something more to being alive than just being a lump of clay, or that death is just the end, I think there may be something more to it than that. But like all people alive, I don't know anything about it really, all I know is that I am alive right now, and I prefer it to the other options on the table, and in the end, I will find out one way or the other regardless of whatever action I take whether all this soul stuff is true or not. Therefore the operative thing is to worry about making this place and the people alive now and in the future the best it can be.
Christian philosophers from St Augustine, to Aquinas have all wrestled with this idea, without ever satisfactorily coming to any conclusion to it. In the modern era, its not something taken seriously by scientists or philosophers in their professional lives, though some still have strong views on the idea of having a soul and that being linking in with morality and all the rest of it.
To be honest I don't think that people's personalities survive death, thats not to say that there isn't something more to being alive than just being a lump of clay, or that death is just the end, I think there may be something more to it than that. But like all people alive, I don't know anything about it really, all I know is that I am alive right now, and I prefer it to the other options on the table, and in the end, I will find out one way or the other regardless of whatever action I take whether all this soul stuff is true or not. Therefore the operative thing is to worry about making this place and the people alive now and in the future the best it can be.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
rjwould;819762 wrote: It seems as though Jester has made a small, but significant little Freudian slip.
He is, as we all are, more than one person. His soul (how he was raised, including his values) is one person which was formed by his parents and some others. One other person is what showed through there in his post-the person he chooses to be. Jester perhaps likes to suppress that second person because it conflicts with the first, and that, in his mind is betrayal to the former. He only needs to reconcile the two of them to be finished.
So like being human ? Like we make mistakes? Like maybe we have to accept during our existence we can change our mind? We live, we learn and maybe sometimes, what we learn, we questions, to maybe flexible ... yikes !!
This is tough, It hurts
He is, as we all are, more than one person. His soul (how he was raised, including his values) is one person which was formed by his parents and some others. One other person is what showed through there in his post-the person he chooses to be. Jester perhaps likes to suppress that second person because it conflicts with the first, and that, in his mind is betrayal to the former. He only needs to reconcile the two of them to be finished.
So like being human ? Like we make mistakes? Like maybe we have to accept during our existence we can change our mind? We live, we learn and maybe sometimes, what we learn, we questions, to maybe flexible ... yikes !!
This is tough, It hurts
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
rjwould;819762 wrote: It seems as though Jester has made a small, but significant little Freudian slip.
He is, as we all are, more than one person. His soul (how he was raised, including his values) is one person which was formed by his parents and some others. One other person is what showed through there in his post-the person he chooses to be. Jester perhaps likes to suppress that second person because it conflicts with the first, and that, in his mind is betrayal to the former. He only needs to reconcile the two of them to be finished.
So like being human ? Like we make mistakes? Like maybe we have to accept during our existence we can change our mind? We live, we learn and maybe sometimes, what we learn, we question, to maybe flexible ... yikes !!
This is tough, It hurts
He is, as we all are, more than one person. His soul (how he was raised, including his values) is one person which was formed by his parents and some others. One other person is what showed through there in his post-the person he chooses to be. Jester perhaps likes to suppress that second person because it conflicts with the first, and that, in his mind is betrayal to the former. He only needs to reconcile the two of them to be finished.
So like being human ? Like we make mistakes? Like maybe we have to accept during our existence we can change our mind? We live, we learn and maybe sometimes, what we learn, we question, to maybe flexible ... yikes !!
This is tough, It hurts
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
rjwould;819775 wrote: I don't quite understand this post, Pheasy. Perhaps you can clarify or finish the thought.
What I mean is life is about learning. :-4 As long as we learn it's ok.
What I mean is life is about learning. :-4 As long as we learn it's ok.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
rjwould;819842 wrote: Well, if they have no definition, the words soul and spirit should not even be uttered. They do have definitions, some just refuse to adhere to them.
I think that we speak these words in an attempt to define the indefineable and to try to communicate what can't be truly communicated in words. Maybe soul is a reference to those rare moments in our lives when we realise, for just a fleeting second or two, that we are not our bodies, our minds or our thoughts, and that there exists something indescribable way beyond what we believe ourselves to be.
If we identify ourselves with our bodies, does that mean we are merely water, blood, bone, flesh etc? Is that me? Is that what I am, a mere pile of bodily components? If we identify ourselves with our minds, then are we just our thoughts? If so, what happens when, for a moment, I don't have a thought? Do I cease to exist? Maybe the idea I hold of "me" doesn't exist?
I really don't have a clue what soul is but perhaps that's because I'm limited by the concepts I have of what I am?
I think that we speak these words in an attempt to define the indefineable and to try to communicate what can't be truly communicated in words. Maybe soul is a reference to those rare moments in our lives when we realise, for just a fleeting second or two, that we are not our bodies, our minds or our thoughts, and that there exists something indescribable way beyond what we believe ourselves to be.
If we identify ourselves with our bodies, does that mean we are merely water, blood, bone, flesh etc? Is that me? Is that what I am, a mere pile of bodily components? If we identify ourselves with our minds, then are we just our thoughts? If so, what happens when, for a moment, I don't have a thought? Do I cease to exist? Maybe the idea I hold of "me" doesn't exist?
I really don't have a clue what soul is but perhaps that's because I'm limited by the concepts I have of what I am?
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Jester;819857 wrote: I have tried, it is best summed up by seeing some one trying to explin who they are without their picture identification to an authority, at best all one can keep claiming is your identity, whlel one beats his chest claiming the body is he, the one inside.
I am me, I am consiouss that I am me.
Its an awakening to the understanding that one exists in a specific form that is undefineable. It may be better to remove the body and ask yourself who then are you?
That's like Descartes, he was the one who said, "I think therefore I am", which is an expression of that state of being that all humans seem to experience. The problem with it is that its impossible to share that experience with anyone else, or be sure that anyone else is fully experiencing it, except by describing it using language, either written or spoken, and then of course all that might be an illusion created by your mind, in fact the whole lot might be, and its impossible for any single human to disprove that.
Two philosophers called George Berkeley and David Hume discussed this problem, with Hume explaining why reason itself cannot be trusted fully, in that every human's ability to reason and their sense of logic is simply based on a set of experiences, and that there is no way for that human being to be sure that their rationality is really anything of the sort, or that any of those experiences have any validity, and its never been possible to fully disprove that proposition.
However, collectively what we assume (for the sake of practicality and sanity) s that reality is not a shared (or singular) delusion, and that you can use deductive reasoning based on experiment and evidence to come to a shared, agreed human idea of how the world works. Why it works, is a much more difficult question, and probably not one we can answer, at least outside of a religious context.
I am me, I am consiouss that I am me.
Its an awakening to the understanding that one exists in a specific form that is undefineable. It may be better to remove the body and ask yourself who then are you?
That's like Descartes, he was the one who said, "I think therefore I am", which is an expression of that state of being that all humans seem to experience. The problem with it is that its impossible to share that experience with anyone else, or be sure that anyone else is fully experiencing it, except by describing it using language, either written or spoken, and then of course all that might be an illusion created by your mind, in fact the whole lot might be, and its impossible for any single human to disprove that.
Two philosophers called George Berkeley and David Hume discussed this problem, with Hume explaining why reason itself cannot be trusted fully, in that every human's ability to reason and their sense of logic is simply based on a set of experiences, and that there is no way for that human being to be sure that their rationality is really anything of the sort, or that any of those experiences have any validity, and its never been possible to fully disprove that proposition.
However, collectively what we assume (for the sake of practicality and sanity) s that reality is not a shared (or singular) delusion, and that you can use deductive reasoning based on experiment and evidence to come to a shared, agreed human idea of how the world works. Why it works, is a much more difficult question, and probably not one we can answer, at least outside of a religious context.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
In regards to the OP, I recall having a brief conversation with spot about soul and spirit. I understand spirit to be the Higher Self, or more evolved of the two, and soul is the result of the spirit melding with a body. Soul is specific to this lifetime. Some people reverse those two and call the Higher Self soul. They are just terms of convenience for those who wish to discuss spiritual matters. It's very inconvenient that the two can be reversed. Causes some confusion in some spiritual discussions.
As with any conversation, the words represent concepts and are, in themselves, meaningless. They are only tools of communication... and poor at that, until we agree to stick to which is which.
As with any conversation, the words represent concepts and are, in themselves, meaningless. They are only tools of communication... and poor at that, until we agree to stick to which is which.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
koan;820041 wrote: In regards to the OP, I recall having a brief conversation with spot about soul and spirit. I understand spirit to be the Higher Self, or more evolved of the two, and soul is the result of the spirit melding with a body. Soul is specific to this lifetime. Some people reverse those two and call the Higher Self soul. They are just terms of convenience for those who wish to discuss spiritual matters. It's very inconvenient that the two can be reversed. Causes some confusion in some spiritual discussions.
As with any conversation, the words represent concepts and are, in themselves, meaningless. They are only tools of communication... and poor at that, until we agree to stick to which is which.
Sure, but don't forget that you also use language to think and dream, to remember, and anticipate, you construct the world around you based on the language you use, its nouns, syntax, and grammar, and wthout language humans don't process things in the same way as people with language. Noam Chomsky has discussed this at length, and a lot of 20th century philosophy is just really about language and its role in human conciouness.
As with any conversation, the words represent concepts and are, in themselves, meaningless. They are only tools of communication... and poor at that, until we agree to stick to which is which.
Sure, but don't forget that you also use language to think and dream, to remember, and anticipate, you construct the world around you based on the language you use, its nouns, syntax, and grammar, and wthout language humans don't process things in the same way as people with language. Noam Chomsky has discussed this at length, and a lot of 20th century philosophy is just really about language and its role in human conciouness.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
american parable
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:01 am
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
As I've been looking around here for a couple of days, I'm beginning to think I'm a big dummy. But I do think that RedGlitter has a soul that is animated by the Spirit. I wonder what needs to be going on with our own soul/spirit in order for us to recognize that life in another.
Funny, After I wrote this first thought, I went to see who RedGlitter is or was, apparently. Seems she's gone. Thought I might have a buddy.
Funny, After I wrote this first thought, I went to see who RedGlitter is or was, apparently. Seems she's gone. Thought I might have a buddy.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Galbally;820278 wrote: Sure, but don't forget that you also use language to think and dream, to remember, and anticipate, you construct the world around you based on the language you use, its nouns, syntax, and grammar, and wthout language humans don't process things in the same way as people with language. Noam Chomsky has discussed this at length, and a lot of 20th century philosophy is just really about language and its role in human conciouness.
I'm not saying we don't need words, just that, like money, people forget that they merely represent something. Words=exchange of ideas Money=exchange of energy
I'm not saying we don't need words, just that, like money, people forget that they merely represent something. Words=exchange of ideas Money=exchange of energy
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Jester;819687 wrote: I dont know if it proves whether we have a soul/spirit or not but it occurs to me I have a conscience, that allows me a process where I determine moral right and wrong, and that component has a major decision making part of my 'will' my volitional will is what I call my soul more than anything. Its different from animals because their will is based on instinct only.
Whether an animal has a soul or not I still think we ought to be decent to them, but then again I have to say when man needs them for food we need to use them as humanly as possible.
Is that nature or is it nurture? Surely our conscience, our determination of right from wrong, is derived from our early training and experience - if we are continually told as a very young child that something is wrong then we will have an automatic, inbuilt, belief that it is wrong.
Was it not the Jesuits who said "give me a child for seven years and I will give you the man".
I certainly do not see conscience as proof of the existence of a soul.
Whether an animal has a soul or not I still think we ought to be decent to them, but then again I have to say when man needs them for food we need to use them as humanly as possible.
Is that nature or is it nurture? Surely our conscience, our determination of right from wrong, is derived from our early training and experience - if we are continually told as a very young child that something is wrong then we will have an automatic, inbuilt, belief that it is wrong.
Was it not the Jesuits who said "give me a child for seven years and I will give you the man".
I certainly do not see conscience as proof of the existence of a soul.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
The Greek word translated to soul was psyche. It was often translated as life. Other suggestions are one's essence or the self. "The early Christians apparently did not think of psyche as an inextinguishable something that survived death". p 245 "From Literal to Literary", James Adams.
"The Hebrew equivalent of psyche is nephesh, also derived from a verb that means breathing." Ibid. p246.
"Both the Hebrew ruach and the Greek pneuma had a variety of meanings. Their most primitive sense, they stood for air. . . . When their language was incapable of describing what they experienced as the power of a creator, they sometimes described the creator's actions as being like the force of the wind and the life-sustaining quality of the air they breathed." Ibid 247.
"What had once been a useful metaphor came to have a meaning restricted to what is supernatural, incorporeal, separate from the material world. Part of the reason for this narrow use of the term may be the way St. Paul used the adjective pneumaticos. Ibid. 247
Shalom
Ted:-6
"The Hebrew equivalent of psyche is nephesh, also derived from a verb that means breathing." Ibid. p246.
"Both the Hebrew ruach and the Greek pneuma had a variety of meanings. Their most primitive sense, they stood for air. . . . When their language was incapable of describing what they experienced as the power of a creator, they sometimes described the creator's actions as being like the force of the wind and the life-sustaining quality of the air they breathed." Ibid 247.
"What had once been a useful metaphor came to have a meaning restricted to what is supernatural, incorporeal, separate from the material world. Part of the reason for this narrow use of the term may be the way St. Paul used the adjective pneumaticos. Ibid. 247
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Without knowing what we are discussing we will get nowhere so I would like to put forward a basic definition to see if we have a starting point.
Can we agree that soul / spirit is that part of a person that is not rooted in the physical body - it exists separately to the physical body and is independent of it.
Any disagreement? Any alternatives?
The difference between soul and spirit we can decide if / when we can agree a starting point.
Can we agree that soul / spirit is that part of a person that is not rooted in the physical body - it exists separately to the physical body and is independent of it.
Any disagreement? Any alternatives?
The difference between soul and spirit we can decide if / when we can agree a starting point.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
koan;823500 wrote: I'm not saying we don't need words, just that, like money, people forget that they merely represent something. Words=exchange of ideas Money=exchange of energy
I understand what you are saying, my view on it is that words are like the currency of conciousness, they are not a side issue, they are fundamental to the reality we create for ourselves.
I understand what you are saying, my view on it is that words are like the currency of conciousness, they are not a side issue, they are fundamental to the reality we create for ourselves.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Bryn Mawr;824750 wrote: Without knowing what we are discussing we will get nowhere so I would like to put forward a basic definition to see if we have a starting point.
Can we agree that soul / spirit is that part of a person that is not rooted in the physical body - it exists separately to the physical body and is independent of it.
Any disagreement? Any alternatives?
The difference between soul and spirit we can decide if / when we can agree a starting point.
I agree that is a good basic starting point. Whether the soul/spirit is connected to the body by the infamous silver cord or not does not change that it is thought of as independent of the body.
I think the finite issue of soul vs spirit is one of where personality resides. Many people do not want their personality to end. I've learned the separation of soul and spirit as being the personality continues into the soul but is eliminated when expanded to the spirit.
Galbally;825108 wrote: I understand what you are saying, my view on it is that words are like the currency of conciousness, they are not a side issue, they are fundamental to the reality we create for ourselves.
Learning more about linguistics is one of the many topics I'm hoping to get time to study. Particularly, I'd like to know the difference between those born with access to all senses and those born deaf.
Can we agree that soul / spirit is that part of a person that is not rooted in the physical body - it exists separately to the physical body and is independent of it.
Any disagreement? Any alternatives?
The difference between soul and spirit we can decide if / when we can agree a starting point.
I agree that is a good basic starting point. Whether the soul/spirit is connected to the body by the infamous silver cord or not does not change that it is thought of as independent of the body.
I think the finite issue of soul vs spirit is one of where personality resides. Many people do not want their personality to end. I've learned the separation of soul and spirit as being the personality continues into the soul but is eliminated when expanded to the spirit.
Galbally;825108 wrote: I understand what you are saying, my view on it is that words are like the currency of conciousness, they are not a side issue, they are fundamental to the reality we create for ourselves.
Learning more about linguistics is one of the many topics I'm hoping to get time to study. Particularly, I'd like to know the difference between those born with access to all senses and those born deaf.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Jester;825250 wrote: I think thats a good basis for discussion, but while the body is alive the spirit is combined with it. I think Fuzzy has it said better in her last post. The soul/spirit is us and the body is what it inhabits currently, however I also have this 'feeling' (opinion) that the body is somehow conneted to the spirit/soul, I dont think our current body is completely relinquiched at death there is s component that live on and is ressurected and changed, accorisng to scripture it becomes 'glorified' but the context leaves this an unknown factor to me currently.
So there is our first point of contention. If you are maintaining that a soul is associated with one, and only, one body then that is in conflict with what I understand to be Koan's belief from the previous post - that the Soul / spirit is independent of the body and, by implication, might inhabit many bodies over time.
I'm not sure I agree with your statement of Fuzzy's position. She appears to say that the body and Soul are one rather that the body being that which the Soul inhabits currently.
Any more takers?
So there is our first point of contention. If you are maintaining that a soul is associated with one, and only, one body then that is in conflict with what I understand to be Koan's belief from the previous post - that the Soul / spirit is independent of the body and, by implication, might inhabit many bodies over time.
I'm not sure I agree with your statement of Fuzzy's position. She appears to say that the body and Soul are one rather that the body being that which the Soul inhabits currently.
Any more takers?
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Jester;825593 wrote: I took what Fuzzy said to be that we are known by our soul/spirit and the body is not really 'us' persay but what we truly are. Its that portion I agreed with.
I cant abide by the 'many bodies' thing either... I just dont buy the leap theory. one body one spirit/soul, unless an additional spirit enters it, but that would not be a human spirit but a demonic spirit at the invitation of the human and it would be in conflict with the human soul/spirit... one too many in the body doesnt make for happy circumstances. At bodily death the soul/spirit moves on to the next level of eternity another spirit then cannot occupy the same body.
But by all means, you guys can make up and define it any way you want to then discuss it from there.
With Fuzzy I was going on the " I dont' believe the soul is seperate or inside of us , I believe we ourselves are the soul " comment but, hopefully, she'll be back soon to set the record straight.
I'm just trying to find common ground so that the discussion can move forward - if we cannot agree what it is that we're discussing then all we'll achieve is a tangled mess.
I cant abide by the 'many bodies' thing either... I just dont buy the leap theory. one body one spirit/soul, unless an additional spirit enters it, but that would not be a human spirit but a demonic spirit at the invitation of the human and it would be in conflict with the human soul/spirit... one too many in the body doesnt make for happy circumstances. At bodily death the soul/spirit moves on to the next level of eternity another spirit then cannot occupy the same body.
But by all means, you guys can make up and define it any way you want to then discuss it from there.
With Fuzzy I was going on the " I dont' believe the soul is seperate or inside of us , I believe we ourselves are the soul " comment but, hopefully, she'll be back soon to set the record straight.
I'm just trying to find common ground so that the discussion can move forward - if we cannot agree what it is that we're discussing then all we'll achieve is a tangled mess.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Thank you Fuzzy, an excellent piece :-6
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
It seems to me that fuzzy has covered it well. When it comes to considering what happens after death it seems to me that we are entering a realm of which we have no knowledge. It is the Christian hope and belief and the the hope of other faiths that in some way a spiritual part of us carries on into eternity. According to the Buddhists once one attains enlightenment and one dies one enters Nirvana which is the Buddhist equivalent of heaven.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
Jester;826215 wrote: Fuzzy I agree in part, the part where you say the soul and body are one, and certainly when we die the body is seperated for a term, but after the final 'calling' of mankind at the end of this world we are united without bodies again, those who believe revceive a glorified ressurected body and those who dont continue in their infirmed body and are seperated from God.
I think soul and spirit (and body) need to be deifned seperately first, I think that may be our problem.
Soul: The mind (intellect), will, emotions.
Spirit: Is more difficult to understand, it is like our conscience, it is God breathed, and it is our awarness of total and absolute truth of God. We either use it to commune with God and worship him, or we stiffle it and keep God at bay while we live our lives the way we want to, and more than likely a grand combination of all of the above.
Body: The fleshly bag of muscle, bone, and tissue I drag through this life and encounter it through the curse of this earth. It houses the Spirit, and the Soul.
In my opinion all three of theseethings make up 'me'.
Bryn I cant really alter a definition for the sake of argument or discussion, I can try to assume a few things but it dosent make much sense to me to change how I believe something. If this ends up in a mess, does it really matter?
The mind (intellect, will and emotion) is surely of the body rather than another name for the soul. It is a function of the brain and, when the brain is damaged, is directly affected by it. Where mind separate from body then this would not be so.
I think we can agree that the spirit is like the conscience rather than being the conscience itself which I see as training impressed on the mind at an early age or learnt slowly at a later age.
It is not a case of altering your definition for the sake of this discussion but it is essential that we all have a clear understanding of what each of the other mean when they use a given term - otherwise the discussion is going nowhere except downhill.
I think soul and spirit (and body) need to be deifned seperately first, I think that may be our problem.
Soul: The mind (intellect), will, emotions.
Spirit: Is more difficult to understand, it is like our conscience, it is God breathed, and it is our awarness of total and absolute truth of God. We either use it to commune with God and worship him, or we stiffle it and keep God at bay while we live our lives the way we want to, and more than likely a grand combination of all of the above.
Body: The fleshly bag of muscle, bone, and tissue I drag through this life and encounter it through the curse of this earth. It houses the Spirit, and the Soul.
In my opinion all three of theseethings make up 'me'.
Bryn I cant really alter a definition for the sake of argument or discussion, I can try to assume a few things but it dosent make much sense to me to change how I believe something. If this ends up in a mess, does it really matter?
The mind (intellect, will and emotion) is surely of the body rather than another name for the soul. It is a function of the brain and, when the brain is damaged, is directly affected by it. Where mind separate from body then this would not be so.
I think we can agree that the spirit is like the conscience rather than being the conscience itself which I see as training impressed on the mind at an early age or learnt slowly at a later age.
It is not a case of altering your definition for the sake of this discussion but it is essential that we all have a clear understanding of what each of the other mean when they use a given term - otherwise the discussion is going nowhere except downhill.
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
From The Time You Were Born , Whether Young Or Old , You've Heard Or Used The Word '' Spirit '' And '' Soul '' Interchangeably For Something Felt Deep Down Inside . My Spirits Are High ; Or My Spirit Is Weak ; I Mean It From My Heart And Soul ; Or This Is Coming From The Depths Of My Soul ; HowEver , When You Use These Expressions , Do You Know What You Are Really Saying? Yet On The Other Hand , The Same Word '' Spirit '' And '' Soul '' Are Also Used When Speaking About Something Existing Or Lingering On After A Person Has Died , Which Is Referred To As Ghost Or Spooks .
When These Terminologies Are Used , Do You Actually Know What They Mean ? This Is The Sole Purpose Of Me Writteing This Post . To Help You OverStand Soul And Spirit By Telling You What A Soul And Spirit IS NOT ;.....All Of The Interpretations Given To You By Various Religious Leader Have Gotten Thousands Of People Caught Up In What Is Called Spookism , The Belief In Spooks , Ghosts , And Goblins , Things That Only Exist In Myths . Legends And Fables , Belief In Spookism Take You Away From The Reality Of Life's True Essence And The Real Truth Of Life's Existence . Its Time To Put Away These Myths And Legends And Deal With The Facts Of What A Soul And Spirit Really Is Which Bring Us To The First Question . What Is A Soul .
The Word Soul Is Used More By Religious People Than By Anybody Else . It Is Religious Groups That Constantly Speak About A Soul And Spirit , And What Is Sad Is That If You LQQk In Each Religion's Holy Books ; Torah The Old Testament Genesis 17 ; 14 . The New Testament Matthew 12 ; 18 As Well As The Quraan 4 ; 171 . You Will See That They Mistranslat And Misuse The Word '' Soul '' Intentionally . The Soul Or Spirit Is Not Some Ghost Like Apparition Or Some Spiritual Being Like Painting Pictures , Statues And Television Have You Thinking . Here Is An Example Of How The Word Soul Has Been Mistranslated . Can Be Found In Genesis 1 ;2 And I Quote , And The Earth Was Without Form , And Void ; And Darkness Was Upon The Face Of The Deep .
And The Spirit Of God Moved Upon TheFace Of The Waters Take A LQQk At The Hebrew Word Ruwach Meaning . Wind Breath , Mind , Also In The Quraan 70 ; 4 Where It States And I Quote . Whereby , All The Heavenly Host The Soul ( Jesus Christ ) Shall Elevate Unto Him In A Day Whose Length Is Fifty Thousand Years .
In Arabic , The Word Ruwh Is Used Meaning , Breath Of Life Soul . Now This Is How The Confusion Starts , Why Would They Translate The Word Rooakh In HebrewOr Ruwh In Arabic As Spirit When In Actuality The Word Spirit Is Nafs In Arabic And Nefesh In Hebrew? Either It Was Deliberately Done Or The People Who Translated It Do Not Know The Language Nor Do They Know That There Is A Difference Between Spirit And Soul Themselves . Clarke's Bible Commentary Shows TheExact Point I'm Making Here . In Genesis1 ;24 It States , AndI Quote '' All God Said , Let The Earth Bring Forth The Living Creature After His Kind ...
'' Let the earth bring forth the living creature nephesh hayyum ; a general term to express all creatures endued with animal life .
Clarke's Bibl Commentary . Volume I . Genesis - Deuteronomy .
Now In This Verse It Says '' Living Creature '' And Translates As Nefesh Hayyum In Hebrew . Here Clarke Is Uncertain Of The Correct Definition Of Nefesh Spirit And Ruwach Soul . Yet , In Genesis 1 ; 2 As Previously Stated , He Translates '' Spirit Of God '' . Based On The Hebrew Word Ruwach .
The Spirit Of God ; This Has Been Variously And Strangely UnderStand . Some Think A Violent Wind Is Meant . Because Ruach Often Signifies Wind As Well As Spirit , As Pneuma Does In The Greek .
Clarke's Bible Commentary . Volume I . Genesis - Deuteronomy .
Also Lane Arabic - English Lexicon Defines Ruwh As ; The Soul , Spirit , Or Vital Principal . ; Syn ; ( But There Is A Difference Between These Two Words . For They Are Not Always Interchangeable ,
However , The Greek Translation Shows The Following Definitions Of Spirit And Soul ; Psuch / Soul . Life Mind ; The Breath Of Life ; The Vital Force Which Animates The Body And Shows Itself In Breathing Which Can Be Found In Mark 8 ; 36 And I Quote For What Shall It Profit A Man . If He Shall Gain The Whole World , And Lose His Own Soul ?
Pneuma ; Spirit ; A Movement Of Air ( A Gentle Blaste ) ; The Spirit , The Vital Principal By Which The Body Is Animated ; TheRational Spirit Which Can Be Found In Matthew 3 ;16 And I Quote . And Jesus When He Was Baptized , Went Up Straightway Out Of The Water ; And Lo . The Heavens Were Opened Unto Him And He Saw The Spirit Of God Descending Like A Dove , And Lighting Upon Him
So , The Problem Of Overstanding The Difference Between Spirit And Soul Is Not From The Person Reading The Scriptures , It Stems From The Translator . Your Religious Leaders Are At Fault Because They Don't Know Any Other Language And Therefore Have To Rely On These Mistranslations . Even If What They Read Doesn't Make Sense To Them They Will Still Relay It To Hundreds Of Thousands Of Their Followers Believing Without A Doubt That This Translated Scriptures Is Correct . Let's Further Examine The Word Ruwh In Arabic From The Root Raha Which Means '' It Was Violently Windy ''
Other Derivatives Are In Arabic ;
Reeh ( n ) wind , fart , smell , odor
Rayyah ( adf ) , a gentle wind
Ruwh ( n ) breath of life , soul
Al Ruwhul Quwdus ( n ) the holy soul
And In Hebrew The Root Of Ruwach , Means '' To Blow Breathe ..
Other Derivaltives Are In Hebrew
Ruwach mind , spirit , wind
Ruwach Wind by resemblance breath , a sensible ( or even violent ) exhalation ; life, anger unsubstantiality ; a region in thesky ; by resemblance spirit . but only of a rational being ( its expression and functions ) ; air anger . blast breath , cool . courage . mind quarter , side , spirit , tempest , vain , ( whirl wind )
M.Z.York
Book What A Soul And Spirit ?
When These Terminologies Are Used , Do You Actually Know What They Mean ? This Is The Sole Purpose Of Me Writteing This Post . To Help You OverStand Soul And Spirit By Telling You What A Soul And Spirit IS NOT ;.....All Of The Interpretations Given To You By Various Religious Leader Have Gotten Thousands Of People Caught Up In What Is Called Spookism , The Belief In Spooks , Ghosts , And Goblins , Things That Only Exist In Myths . Legends And Fables , Belief In Spookism Take You Away From The Reality Of Life's True Essence And The Real Truth Of Life's Existence . Its Time To Put Away These Myths And Legends And Deal With The Facts Of What A Soul And Spirit Really Is Which Bring Us To The First Question . What Is A Soul .
The Word Soul Is Used More By Religious People Than By Anybody Else . It Is Religious Groups That Constantly Speak About A Soul And Spirit , And What Is Sad Is That If You LQQk In Each Religion's Holy Books ; Torah The Old Testament Genesis 17 ; 14 . The New Testament Matthew 12 ; 18 As Well As The Quraan 4 ; 171 . You Will See That They Mistranslat And Misuse The Word '' Soul '' Intentionally . The Soul Or Spirit Is Not Some Ghost Like Apparition Or Some Spiritual Being Like Painting Pictures , Statues And Television Have You Thinking . Here Is An Example Of How The Word Soul Has Been Mistranslated . Can Be Found In Genesis 1 ;2 And I Quote , And The Earth Was Without Form , And Void ; And Darkness Was Upon The Face Of The Deep .
And The Spirit Of God Moved Upon TheFace Of The Waters Take A LQQk At The Hebrew Word Ruwach Meaning . Wind Breath , Mind , Also In The Quraan 70 ; 4 Where It States And I Quote . Whereby , All The Heavenly Host The Soul ( Jesus Christ ) Shall Elevate Unto Him In A Day Whose Length Is Fifty Thousand Years .
In Arabic , The Word Ruwh Is Used Meaning , Breath Of Life Soul . Now This Is How The Confusion Starts , Why Would They Translate The Word Rooakh In HebrewOr Ruwh In Arabic As Spirit When In Actuality The Word Spirit Is Nafs In Arabic And Nefesh In Hebrew? Either It Was Deliberately Done Or The People Who Translated It Do Not Know The Language Nor Do They Know That There Is A Difference Between Spirit And Soul Themselves . Clarke's Bible Commentary Shows TheExact Point I'm Making Here . In Genesis1 ;24 It States , AndI Quote '' All God Said , Let The Earth Bring Forth The Living Creature After His Kind ...
'' Let the earth bring forth the living creature nephesh hayyum ; a general term to express all creatures endued with animal life .
Clarke's Bibl Commentary . Volume I . Genesis - Deuteronomy .
Now In This Verse It Says '' Living Creature '' And Translates As Nefesh Hayyum In Hebrew . Here Clarke Is Uncertain Of The Correct Definition Of Nefesh Spirit And Ruwach Soul . Yet , In Genesis 1 ; 2 As Previously Stated , He Translates '' Spirit Of God '' . Based On The Hebrew Word Ruwach .
The Spirit Of God ; This Has Been Variously And Strangely UnderStand . Some Think A Violent Wind Is Meant . Because Ruach Often Signifies Wind As Well As Spirit , As Pneuma Does In The Greek .
Clarke's Bible Commentary . Volume I . Genesis - Deuteronomy .
Also Lane Arabic - English Lexicon Defines Ruwh As ; The Soul , Spirit , Or Vital Principal . ; Syn ; ( But There Is A Difference Between These Two Words . For They Are Not Always Interchangeable ,
However , The Greek Translation Shows The Following Definitions Of Spirit And Soul ; Psuch / Soul . Life Mind ; The Breath Of Life ; The Vital Force Which Animates The Body And Shows Itself In Breathing Which Can Be Found In Mark 8 ; 36 And I Quote For What Shall It Profit A Man . If He Shall Gain The Whole World , And Lose His Own Soul ?
Pneuma ; Spirit ; A Movement Of Air ( A Gentle Blaste ) ; The Spirit , The Vital Principal By Which The Body Is Animated ; TheRational Spirit Which Can Be Found In Matthew 3 ;16 And I Quote . And Jesus When He Was Baptized , Went Up Straightway Out Of The Water ; And Lo . The Heavens Were Opened Unto Him And He Saw The Spirit Of God Descending Like A Dove , And Lighting Upon Him
So , The Problem Of Overstanding The Difference Between Spirit And Soul Is Not From The Person Reading The Scriptures , It Stems From The Translator . Your Religious Leaders Are At Fault Because They Don't Know Any Other Language And Therefore Have To Rely On These Mistranslations . Even If What They Read Doesn't Make Sense To Them They Will Still Relay It To Hundreds Of Thousands Of Their Followers Believing Without A Doubt That This Translated Scriptures Is Correct . Let's Further Examine The Word Ruwh In Arabic From The Root Raha Which Means '' It Was Violently Windy ''
Other Derivatives Are In Arabic ;
Reeh ( n ) wind , fart , smell , odor
Rayyah ( adf ) , a gentle wind
Ruwh ( n ) breath of life , soul
Al Ruwhul Quwdus ( n ) the holy soul
And In Hebrew The Root Of Ruwach , Means '' To Blow Breathe ..
Other Derivaltives Are In Hebrew
Ruwach mind , spirit , wind
Ruwach Wind by resemblance breath , a sensible ( or even violent ) exhalation ; life, anger unsubstantiality ; a region in thesky ; by resemblance spirit . but only of a rational being ( its expression and functions ) ; air anger . blast breath , cool . courage . mind quarter , side , spirit , tempest , vain , ( whirl wind )
M.Z.York
Book What A Soul And Spirit ?
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Soul/Spirit, what is it and how does it work?
I think it is important, in all of this, to remember that we are dealing with ancient writings. These folks had limited language and very limited knowledge of the world around them. They used the words they had to express what they thought or experienced. It is futile, to go to any ancient scripture, to interpret life and experiences today. Our interpretations and concepts must change with our increase in knowledge and understanding.
To add to this, as far as the whole Bible is concerned were must take into consideration midrash and its influence on the present sacred writings we have. They have been changed, redacted, edited added to and subtracted from. We must also reinterpret the Bible in light of today's knowledge and our conceptualization abilities.
If in fact we are speaking of the Divine we enter a realm for which we have no language but metaphor. No human language is able to come close to the reality of the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To add to this, as far as the whole Bible is concerned were must take into consideration midrash and its influence on the present sacred writings we have. They have been changed, redacted, edited added to and subtracted from. We must also reinterpret the Bible in light of today's knowledge and our conceptualization abilities.
If in fact we are speaking of the Divine we enter a realm for which we have no language but metaphor. No human language is able to come close to the reality of the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6