Woman had seven abortions

[pantsonfire321@aol.com]

I blanked out the emotions after each of my SEVEN abortions

As new figures reveal the massive increase in multiple abortions, a mother tells of their devastating legacy



By Alison Smith Squire

Last updated at 8:00 AM on 15th July 2008

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Among the throng of women who gather outside the school gates each day, Angela Simmons is every inch the archetypal middle-class mother, fussing over her seven-year-old son Ben and ferrying him between after-school clubs and play dates.



Certainly nobody would guess that the 39-year-old former estate agent is one of around 50 women each year in the UK to have notched up her seventh abortion.



Government statistics released this week show that record numbers of women are having two or more abortions - and those who do so are not, as might be expected, young teenagers who don't know any better.





Emotional toll: Angela Simmons with son Ben

Angela is typical of them. As a cautionary tale about abortion, her story reveals a great deal about the emotional legacy of a termination - and especially of multiple abortions.



For while she continually insists she does not regret any of her actions, she goes on to describe in agonising detail her lifelong battle with depression, how she once tried to take her own life and how she finds it a daily struggle to overcome a deep and abiding sense of shame.



'Looking back, there was a definitive reason why I had each termination and a valid reason why I felt at the time I could not even have begun to contemplate continuing with each of the pregnancies,' says Angela.



Many, of course, will find such a flimsy justification hard to accept - especially seven times over.



Perhaps the most astonishing revelation of all is Angela's insistence: 'I do not really regret any of my abortions.'



Or the admission that she also came close to aborting her son Ben and changed her mind only when her then partner, Patrick, begged her not to go through with it.



Certainly, it doesn't come as much of a surprise that her relationship with Ben's father broke up six years ago amid bitter recrimination over the two abortions she had against Patrick's wishes either side of their son's birth.



And yet sadly, Angela's grim story is not unique. This week's figures released by Public Health Minister Dawn Primarolo reveal how many modern women are using abortion, not as a last resort, but almost as a form of contraception.



Statistics show that last year 1,300 women had at least their fifth abortion.





Ben, now aged 8, enjoys climbing a tree

Almost 950 of those having a termination had already had four previously. Almost 200

had already had five, 110 had had six before and 54, like Angela, seven or more.



The ease with which such women are undergoing repeat abortions has led campaigners to argue that terminations are being approved all too readily - given for social reasons rather than because a pregnancy might pose a significant risk to a mother's health or well-being.



There are fears too about the emotional toll that multiple abortions may be taking on such women.



This week the Royal College of Psychiatrists warned that women may be at risk of mental breakdowns if they have abortions - something which, as we shall see, is borne out by Angela's story - and should not be allowed one unless they are properly counselled about this potential risk.



So how did the intelligent, middle-class daughter of an engineer and a secretary become one of these bleak statistics?



Angela, a single mother from Bristol, insists she never used abortion as a form of contraception and was merely 'unlucky'. But seven times unlucky is perhaps stretching the bounds of credibility.



'I have always used contraception properly,' she insists.



'Yet everything - condoms, the Pill, the coil and even charting my temperature to avoid having sex during my fertile time - has let me down. The fact that I have been so fertile has been the bane of my life.'



Whether she used contraception properly or not - and under the circumstances, one can only suspect not - Angela is certainly living proof of the emotional aftermath of abortion.





Angela Simmons at home in Bath: 'I feel incredible shame over what I've done'

After her third termination, aged 26, she tried to kill herself by overdosing on alcohol and painkillers and spent eight weeks in a psychiatric unit.



And yet the ease with which she was able to secure a fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh abortion with no proper assessment is astounding.



Indeed, she reveals that she went to the same abortion clinic for each of her terminations and claims she was offered only the most cursory of counselling before every one.



'I do wish that someone in those clinics had really sat down with me and talked it through properly,' says Angela, who is now undergoing counselling to help her cope with her past actions.



'The reason why I had so many abortions is that I didn't want to bring a child into the world unless my situation was perfect - but it never was.



'With each termination I felt it was my responsibility to get on with my own life and forget about it. After each one I just blanked out the emotions and never thought about it. I felt no remorse at all.'



Angela's first abortion was, she says, a straightforward affair. She was 21 and working as a sales negotiator for a large London estate agency when she 'accidentally' fell pregnant, three months after meeting a construction worker called Tom.



She says they used the Pill and condoms.



'It was a total shock and when I told Tom, he said he didn't want to know,' she recalls.



'I was devastated. Then he stopped answering his phone when I rang. Having a baby by myself in my tiny London flat without any support was just not an option. I felt I had no choice but to have an abortion.'



When she was nine weeks' pregnant, Angela went to her GP, who referred her to an abortion clinic.





Angela Simmons with son Ben in 2000

After a 'cursory' chat with a nurse who asked her if she was sure she wanted a termination, Angela was booked in for the procedure.



'After the operation I woke up and simply felt relief that it was over,' she says. 'I just wanted to get on with my life and forget about it.'



Which is what she did, with no regrets and seemingly no emotional trauma.



Her second unwanted pregnancy, four years later, was the result of a romance with Simon.



Two years older than her, he was saving up for a round-the-world trip by doing odd jobs and not looking for long-term commitment.



It was only after he'd left the country that Angela discovered that she was pregnant again.



Once more, she insists, she was using the contraceptive pill, and once more offers the excuse that it was simply not the right time in her life to have a child.



'There was no way I could consider having a baby, because nothing had changed about my situation,' she says.



'So I went back to my GP and had another abortion at eight weeks. Again, as soon as it was over I simply felt relieved. I wanted to put it all behind me.'



Yet if Angela might have been expected to learn from her mistakes, within the year she was pregnant again, having met David, a pub manager ten years her senior. A third termination loomed.



'Our relationship was already rocky,' she says by way of explanation.



'I always suspected he was unfaithful, although I couldn't prove it, but he already had children from previous relationships with other women and I didn't want to end up like them.



'If David had turned round and said "Look, I want us to marry and there will be no other women", I might have had the baby, but instead he simply turned round and offered to pay for a termination and even drive me to a clinic.'



Ten weeks into the pregnancy, David took her to a London clinic for her third abortion. Although today she insists it was the 'right' decision, it felt very wrong at the time.



'I began to feel I was making a terrible mess of my life,' says Angela, in what many will see as a gross understatement. She broke up with David soon after.



She adds: 'A few weeks later I felt so depressed that one night I took an overdose of alcohol and painkillers. I knew immediately that I didn't really want to die, it was a cry for help, so I took myself to casualty.



'But while I got better physically, no one tried to talk to me about how I felt, and after eight weeks on a psychiatric ward I discharged myself. I thought I would just have to try and forget about it all and put it behind me.'



In a bid to make a fresh start, Angela, now aged 30, moved to a flat in Epsom, Surrey, where she started working in a gym. It was here she met Patrick, a divorced IT consultant.



This time when she 'accidentally' became pregnant three months into the relationship - it seems she had not learned her lessons from the previous pregnancies - Patrick did not desert her or offer to pay for an abortion.



In fact, he was thrilled at the news. Surely, this was what Angela had been looking for all along? A committed, loving partner who very much wanted to be a father to their baby?





Despite her shame at having had seven abortions, Angela Simmons is trying to get on with her life

'My life had only just got back on an even keel after my overdose,' explains Angela.



'Our relationship was very new. I felt we barely knew one another and really couldn't contemplate having a child.'



She aborted the baby at 12 weeks - against Patrick's wishes - and yet he stuck by her.



'Patrick held the abortion against me,' she says, seemingly surprised by his reaction. 'I didn't regret it, but whenever we had a row, he would bring up the abortion and say how hurt he was by what I had done.'



Three years later, when Angela 'accidentally' became pregnant again, her first instinct was immediately to have another abortion.



'We weren't married and I do feel children should be born within marriage,' she says, clinging to her 'perfect' vision of family life.



'Our relationship was rocky and I felt having a baby would only make it worse.



However, I also felt incredibly guilty because I knew how upset Patrick had been about what had happened to our first baby. So I let him convince me that we should keep it.'



It was a difficult pregnancy and when Ben was born eight weeks prematurely and with severe learning difficulties, Angela struggled to bond with him. Her relationship with Patrick deteriorated and when Ben was two months old she decamped with him to her father's flat in Berkshire.



During a 'reconciliation meeting' with Patrick a week later, Angela fell pregnant again, yes, you guessed it, 'accidentally'.



'I couldn't believe that I could be so unlucky again,' she says, once again oblivious to the possibility that she might have been responsible in any way. Obviously there was no way I could go through with another pregnancy so soon after Ben, when I was probably already suffering post-natal depression, so I booked another abortion.'



Many will find her actions unforgivable. Her partner Patrick certainly did, and they split up. And yet her appalling track record continued.



Two years later, Angela was pregnant again, three months after meeting 35-year-old Paul who ran his own computer company.



As before, Angela claims she was on the Pill.



'The relationship was so new that I felt I couldn't go through a pregnancy and Paul felt it was up to me to make the decision,' she says.



So it was that she went through abortion number six. But, incredibly, a year later she was pregnant again.



This time she insists she felt Paul's commitment to their future wavering, so she aborted again for the seventh time.



'Bringing up a baby in a relationship that he wasn't fully involved in wasn't on and I felt it was in all our best interests to have an abortion,' she says matter-of-factly.



The irony is, of course, that while she blames her various partners for their lack of commitment, it seems often to have been Angela who has refused to make a commitment to a relationship by having a child with a partner.



Now, she has ended up on her own with a child anyway - largely thanks to her own selfish behaviour.



And as she struggled to cope with the consequences of her own actions, she finally decided to seek counselling.



'I felt a huge sense of failure and that I had really mucked up my life,' she says.



'I felt a great deal of shame over my abortions and also that I was so hopeless that I wasn't even a deserving mum to Ben.'



As a result, Angela blames her own traumatic childhood for leading her down such a destructive path.



Growing up in Berkshire, she was four years old when her parents' marriage broke up. Her mother remarried and between the ages of ten and 14 Angela was sexually abused by her stepfather, who in 1997 was jailed for three years at Reading Crown Court after admitting the abuse.



When Angela tried to tell her mother what was happening, her mother refused to believe her - causing a rift between them which lasts to this day.



It was hardly surprising, then, that Angela grew up desperate to create her own family. Most of her ambitions centred on marriage and children - lots of them - to help erase the loneliness of the past.



And surely it can have been no coincidence that almost all of her 'accidental' pregnancies occurred about three months into a new relationship - the honeymoon phase - after which she panicked and decided to have an abortion when she decided that neither her man nor her situation was 'perfect'.



'For a long time I thought I had managed to put that episode of my life behind me,' she says.



'Now I believe that is the reason why I have never been able to commit to a relationship and why, when I got pregnant, I didn't think I deserved a baby.



'I didn't want to bring a baby into the world unless my situation was perfect. I never had a mother figure and, because we weren't close, no guidance.'



But if Angela's own childhood ordeal merits sympathy, it surely cannot justify her actions.



In the end, her own conscience is still clearly muddled. While insisting she has no regrets, she says: 'I feel the most incredible shame over what I have done.'



At least she is able to see how selfish her actions must seem to those who are struggling to conceive at all: 'I do feel guilty that I have had so many unwanted pregnancies when there are many women who can't have children.'



Perhaps the only glimmer of hope on the horizon is her insistence that: 'If I do ever get pregnant again, I would now not consider having an abortion. It is only now I can look back and see just how emotionally painful having them was.'



Others could be forgiven for suggesting that if she doesn't want to have another child, she might consider taking greater care not to get pregnant in the first place.



• Some of the names in this article have been changed.





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[RedGlitter]

I hope this was an op-ed piece because with the total smear of the writer's personal judgmental opinions, it does not qualify as proper neutral journalism.

Ok I'll bite. I have several things to say about this piece but I need to form my thoughts first.

Good topic for a proper argument, Pants! You little pot-stirrer, you. :wah:

[spot]

And which pusillanimous rag printed that?

What proportion of 50-60 year old women in England do you suppose have ever had an abortion? Most or under half, for example? They're the group who've been legally able to have abortions for the most years and they're the group with the highest total abortion rate. I'm interested in your guess.

[pantsonfire321@aol.com]

RedGlitter;920755 wrote: I hope this was an op-ed piece because with the total smear of the writer's personal judgmental opinions, it does not qualify as proper neutral journalism.

Ok I'll bite. I have several things to say about this piece but I need to form my thoughts first.

Good topic for a proper argument, Pants! You little pot-stirrer, you. :wah:



I think it's a good topic .

Imo seven is way to many . I can't help wondering why if she didn't want to be pregnant didn't she just get sterilised .:-5

[RedGlitter]

pantsonfire321@aol.com;920760 wrote:



I think it's a good topic .

Imo seven is way to many . I can't help wondering why if she didn't want to be pregnant didn't she just get sterilised .:-5


Oh I was being serious Pants. I think it is a good topic. I was just kidding about pot-stirrer.

Okay I guess my first question is how many abortions is too many? Lots of people would say "one" and others might say "two" or "three." Still for others it might be a case of "I don't know but seven is too many."It's kind of like labeling people as promiscuous. How many people can one bed before one becomes "promiscuous?"

I don't like the opinionated tone of the writer but I don't know what kind of piece it was supposed to be either so...

I wholly object to the smacking morality of the writer's comments about "learn her lesson" and "didn't learn from her mistakes." What this odd woman should have learned perhaps is that she picks crappy men to have "relationships" (if you wanna call it that) with. Maybe she's got a self esteem issue from being molested, I don't know but these dudes who impregnated her are total losers who should have been kicked to the curb.

Things like "a child should only be born in marriage" **** me off. Didn't we just get finished not long ago with the Dark Ages where we sent unmarried pregnant women to "visit their aunts" for nine months so they wouldn't "disgrace" the family? It seems this attitude was implanted well in this woman's mind.

I'm not exactly siding with her. Even I think seven terminations is a bit much but then I couldn't tell you when the cutoff point should be. I also don't believe that a person with all those contraception options available to her can get impregnated seven times accidentally. But I'm sure someone will jump me for implying she's a liar. :rolleyes:

Why are we/is the writer concentrating on judging this woman? Did she wake up pregnant on her own? Why are these immature, selfish, loser guys not being dragged over the coals?

It seems to me the answer is the same as it's been for millenia. And I'm not buying it.

[Chezzie]

A woman or a couple together have to make a decision thats right for them at that moment in time. Myself personally I could not do it, I lost a baby so maybe my view is because of that. Whilst pregnant on my first and waiting on the downs syndrome tests ect to come back I knew it didnt matter what the result was, I was having the baby, no matter what. My husband however wasnt so sure. One of my best friends had an abortion, she was young and foolish, it was the right decision for her at that time.

Seven times, wow, you have to wonder why this woman wasnt getting some kind of guidence and gp help, like Red, I dont think the writer of the article has written a good piece on her, she obviously a troubled woman.

Where do you draw the line on how many times one can have a termination? Is once acceptable but to have multiple to be too much when its just because they "thought they were in love after 3 months" or thought a baby would help the relationship or to trap a partner due to a troubled upbringing.

Theirs no denying that poor woman had some suffering in her life though and who knows, if I had walked in her shoes for a day, I may have a different outlook on it. You can only express an opinion on your own life history and personal views.

[spot]

Here's the paper from the DoH last week which triggered the article, and the tables from it which matter to the thread.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsand ... dition=Web

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsand ... dition=Web

Attached files

[pantsonfire321@aol.com]

RedGlitter;920768 wrote: Oh I was being serious Pants. I think it is a good topic. I was just kidding about pot-stirrer.

Okay I guess my first question is how many abortions is too many? Lots of people would say "one" and others might say "two" or "three." Still for others it might be a case of "I don't know but seven is too many."It's kind of like labeling people as promiscuous. How many people can one bed before one becomes "promiscuous?"

I don't like the opinionated tone of the writer but I don't know what kind of piece it was supposed to be either so...

I wholly object to the smacking morality of the writer's comments about "learn her lesson" and "didn't learn from her mistakes." What this odd woman should have learned perhaps is that she picks crappy men to have "relationships" (if you wanna call it that) with. Maybe she's got a self esteem issue from being molested, I don't know but these dudes who impregnated her are total losers who should have been kicked to the curb.

Things like "a child should only be born in marriage" **** me off. Didn't we just get finished not long ago with the Dark Ages where we sent unmarried pregnant women to "visit their aunts" for nine months so they wouldn't "disgrace" the family? It seems this attitude was implanted well in this woman's mind.

I'm not exactly siding with her. Even I think seven terminations is a bit much but then I couldn't tell you when the cutoff point should be. I also don't believe that a person with all those contraception options available to her can get impregnated seven times accidentally. But I'm sure someone will jump me for implying she's a liar. :rolleyes:

Why are we/is the writer concentrating on judging this woman? Did she wake up pregnant on her own? Why are these immature, selfish, loser guys not being dragged over the coals?

It seems to me the answer is the same as it's been for millenia. And I'm not buying it.


Hey Red, i did know you were joking ..i should of put a smilie in there ...i'm sorry

[Accountable]

pantsonfire321@aol.com;920748 wrote: Angela, a single mother from Bristol, insists she never used abortion as a form of contraception and was merely 'unlucky'.



[...]



'Yet everything - condoms, the Pill, the coil and even charting my temperature to avoid having sex during my fertile time - has let me down. The fact that I have been so fertile has been the bane of my life.'
You poor thing.

Chezzie wrote: One of my best friends had an abortion, she was young and foolish, it was the right decision for her at that time.
And that's what most important, of course.

[Peg]

7 abortions? I just cannot bring myself to feel any pity for this person at all. She got pregnant every time using birth control? Don't you think she would get the hint before it taking 8 pregnancies that maybe she should go to more drastic measures to prevent pregnancy? If it sounds judgemental, oh well.

[CARLA]

I agree Peg not the brightest person is she. I would say to her have your tubes tied and end it. If you don't want to have children, be pro active not reactive. Sorry she needs to get another doctor as well. 7 abortions is dangerous phisically and emotionally.

[QUOTE]

7 abortions? I just cannot bring myself to feel any pity for this person at all. She got pregnant every time using birth control? Don't you think she would get the hint before it taking 8 pregnancies that maybe she should go to more drastic measures to prevent pregnancy? If it sounds judgemental, oh well.[/QUOTE]

[CARLA]

Oh boy Jester your going to get it. I see your point but other won't as ABORTION is a hot button for most. Its not just another medical procedure its "Aborting a Human life" in most peoples opinion and that has consequences physically and mentally for some.

Granted some don't give a damn about the Human life they are aborting and for them it is just another annoyance.

Here is the US you can't get an abortion without counseling period doesn't matter what age you are. Of course some go the dangerous method seeking out people who say they do legal abortions, some die.

[QUOTE]If abortion is just another medical procedure then why does the mother experince so much emotional toil (guilt in IMHO) from the procedure? Why is it necessary that the psych agency in the article recommends no abortion without specific counseling? and why is it 'more likely' that these women will have a mental breakdown?[/QUOTE]

[spot]

CARLA;921031 wrote: Here is the US you can't get an abortion without counseling period doesn't matter what age you are. Of course some go the dangerous method seeking out people who say they do legal abortions, some die.I'd be interested if you could expand on that. Nobody's died of either a legal or illegal abortion in England, Wales or Scotland since abortion was legalized here in 1967.

[spot]

Jester;921085 wrote: nobody? the child died everytime the procedure was performed.


We in the UK, unlike you Americans, have a legal definition of "child" which precludes the fetus. Abortion has been legal here for most of English history.

[chonsigirl]

An interesting article I googled up about Britain and abortion:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 88,00.html

[spot]

Jester;921107 wrote: ah, I see, that of course relieves all the guilt of the murder. Why the need for counseling and the increase in probablity of mental break down? Kinda skews your murder stats then doesnt it?


Abortion was considered murder in England between - I'm doing this from memory so I might be a year out - 1803 and 1837. Never before and never since.

eta: talk about coincidence - chonsi's Time article of 1969 has it:Great Britain's historical opposition to abortion comes from both common and canon law. In 1803 Lord Ellenborough pushed through a bill to make abortion a crime punishable by death if performed after the fetus had "quickened." In 1837 Parliament revised the law, eliminating the death penalty, but in the process lost the distinction between abortion before and after quickening and consequently outlawed all abortion. A 1929 change made abortion illegal except to save the life of the pregnant woman. Not bad recall, that.

[Chezzie]

Jester;921107 wrote: ah, I see, that of course relieves all the guilt of the murder. Why the need for counseling and the increase in probablity of mental break down? Kinda skews your murder stats then doesnt it?


Would you class it murder if it was preformed to save the mothers life?

Or

What if the baby was a product of rape?

slightly off topic to the original op so forgive me :-4

[spot]

Jester;921118 wrote: 'considered' I suppose you mean under the legal definition. We all know that the law is always correct and never in need of change...:rolleyes:


It comes of murder being a legal term, you see. It's how you can say some killings committed by members of some armed forces aren't murder.

[spot]

Jester;921195 wrote: In the event the mothers life is in immediate peril, that should be the choice of the mother, the designated person the mother has chosen to speak for her and the doctor attending to her. I think those instances are extremely rare and uncommon.

Never for any other reason would I ever under any circumstances condone the murder of an unborn child, at any stage in development. (even rape, even incest)

But thats not the reason chidlren are aborted today, they are unwanted inconviiniences, annoyances to be cast aside becaseu the mother (and father) prefer to indulge in selfish pleasure and do not consider the consequences.

Every child no matter how challenged deserves a chance for life.


It baffles me that you can think this way and yet not bat an eyelid at the application of lethal force when authorized by your Commander in Chief. The two positions seem utterly irreconcilable.

[spot]

Jester;921200 wrote: Then we should use the term homicide instead of abortion, would that satisfy you legally speaking?

Of course that comes into additonal legal wrangling does it not? I suppose it is much easier on the human psyche to just use 'abortion' funny how it doesnt stop the intense emotional side effects though.

New title: 'Woman had seven homicides'


Let's not use the term Homicide, not if we're in England. We don't use that word at all.

Here, though it might only interest me, is the current position in the UK:71. (iii) It was now a settled general principle of the common law that in the United Kingdom legal personality crystallised upon birth. Up until that point, the unborn had no legal personality independent of the pregnant woman. However, despite that lack of legal personality, the interests of the unborn were often protected while they were in the womb, even though those interests could not be realised as enforceable rights until the attainment of legal personality on birth.

72. In the civil law, that specifically meant that prior to birth, the unborn had no standing to bring proceedings for compensation or other judicial remedies in relation to any harm done or injury sustained while in the womb, and that no claim could be made on their behalf (see Paton v British Pregnancy Advisory Service Trustees [1979] QB 276). Efforts had been made to persuade the courts dealing with such cases that according to the law of succession, the unborn could be deemed to be “born or “persons in being whenever their interests so demanded. However, the Burton case confirmed that that principle was also subject to the live birth of a child ([1993] QB 204, 227).

73. In the criminal law, it was well established that the unborn were not treated as legal persons for the purpose of the common-law rules of murder or manslaughter. In Attorney-General's Reference (no. 3, 1994), the House of Lords had concluded that the injury of the unborn without a live birth could not lead to a conviction for murder, manslaughter or any other violent crime. The rights of the unborn were further protected by the criminal law on abortion. ss 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 had introduced the statutory offences of procuring abortion and procuring the means to cause abortion. Similarly, by s 1 of the Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 the destruction of the unborn, where capable of live birth, was a serious offence. Those Acts were still in effect. Abortion and child destruction remained illegal, subject to the application of the Abortion Act 1967.



Taken from "Vo v France (App no 53924/00) [2004] European Court of Human Rights 53924/00"

[spot]

Jester;921205 wrote: the soldier who takes up arms for his country, or agaisnt another has made a concious choice to fight.No, sir. Manifestly not. The soldier who takes up arms for his country may be a conscript and as innocent as the day he was born. The soldier who takes up arms for his country as a volunteer may be fighting a just war and be as innocent as the day he was born. You still kill him when ordered to by your Commander in Chief without hesitation or qualm and yet you see the killing of an unborn child as an atrocity. I can't bring both views into one common ethical position, you seem split.

[spot]

Jester;921227 wrote: Its not as though I can change it spot, you in the UK also give human rights to primates if I am not mistaken... you will defend the right of a mammal yet destroy human life from the womb to just milliseconds before the child’s first viable breath. Is it legal to abort a Primate?Perhaps you could show me where we do that? I've never heard of it. New Zealand has legislation but not to that extent, Spain's proposing to follow New Zealand if I heard right - the UK has nothing at all along those lines. We have rules for the use of laboratory animals in scientific research but that's not exactly what you're suggesting.

If you read what I quoted, it's extremely illegal here to "destroy human life from the womb to just milliseconds before the child’s first viable breath". What I quoted was "by s 1 of the Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 the destruction of the unborn, where capable of live birth, was a serious offence. Those Acts were still in effect. Abortion and child destruction remained illegal, subject to the application of the Abortion Act 1967."

Jester wrote: I cannot explain to you the passion to which this saddens me, it’s tragic, it’s reprehensible, it’s a symptom of the darkening evil pervasive in societies in parts of our world. We are no different from the Aztec Indians of old, who slaughtered thousands in human sacrifice to the sun gods, we just clean it up and package it up in a sterile procedure and get paid for it, the sun god has been replaced by 'self' and we do it under a legal terminology that does not change the fact of what it is as evidenced by the emotional toll of the mothers.That perfectly sums up my attitude to current deployment of the US Armed Forces but I could never have written it so well.

[Imladris]

Is it just me or does the article in the o.p. seems rather anti-abortion, to the point that it seems to be written as a propoganda piece rather than a journalistic article.



I would be interested in where the article came from and who commisioned it - Pants, can you help with that?



Seven abortions is extreme and I'm surprised that the doctors treating this woman haven't insisted on more counselling. However I have my doubts about this article and if it is entirely truthful. (sorry to be a cynic!!)

[spot]

Imladris;921231 wrote: Is it just me or does the article in the o.p. seems rather anti-abortion, to the point that it seems to be written as a propoganda piece rather than a journalistic article.



I would be interested in where the article came from and who commisioned it - Pants, can you help with that?



Seven abortions is extreme and I'm surprised that the doctors treating this woman haven't insisted on more counselling. However I have my doubts about this article and if it is entirely truthful. (sorry to be a cynic!!)


My third attachment has the totals. There were 52 abortions nationally last year which were preceded by 6 others. I agree the reporter could have managed to find one but when I read it, I agree, it sounded a completely fictional account with the intention of swaying the emotions of the readers. Did the reporter talk to the person quoted and are the quotes accurate? No idea.

eta: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... tions.html

Ah.

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Up to £6000 paid for your story

Women's Magazines National Newspapers National TV.

Do you want to sell a story? Do you want to share a real-life story with others? Or raise money by selling your true story for charity? Have you experienced a life-changing event? Beaten an illness? Blossomed after divorce? Found love? Want to expose a love-rat or cheat? Ever read a real life story in a national newspaper or women's magazine and thought 'That could be me?' Perhaps you dream of selling your life story and becoming famous or being on TV? But maybe you're nervous about selling your story to a national newspaper or women's magazine yourself or through a big impersonal news agency?

Then read on.That's how she did it. She's "Alison, your online media agent". The question now boils down to did Angela Simmons tell the truth to Alison in exchange for her multi-thousand-pound cheque?

[Imladris]

spot;921235 wrote: My third attachment has the totals. There were 52 abortions nationally last year which were preceded by 6 others. I agree the reporter could have managed to find one but when I read it, I agree, it sounded a completely fictional account with the intention of swaying the emotions of the readers. Did the reporter talk to the person quoted and are the quotes accurate? No idea.




If it is true, and I sincerely hope it isn't, that poor woman is certainly a messed up person. The easy way to avoid having numerous abortions because of unstable relationships is to not sh4g about and have unstable relationships. Perhaps that is too simplistic but you don't get pregnant if you don't have sex.

Edit - I just saw your link to the Daily Mail article, my 'puter won't load it mainly because it hates me, but I'll try later, thanks Spot

[Accountable]

Jester;921107 wrote: ah, I see, that of course relieves all the guilt of the murder. Why the need for counseling and the increase in probablity of mental break down? Kinda skews your murder stats then doesnt it?
I'm not allowed to respond to Spot because I'm too thick to understand him, but I have a question: Why is it that modern society is so hot to look at everything scientifically, yet reject the scientific (forensic) evidence that even a zygote is human?

[Imladris]

Accountable;921239 wrote: I'm not allowed to respond to Spot because I'm too thick to understand him, but I have a question: Why is it that modern society is so hot to look at everything scientifically, yet reject the scientific (forensic) evidence that even a zygote is human?
Blimey, I have no chance then!!!!!:-3:rolleyes:





I've always been of the opinion that human life is created at conception, I know it's rather 'unfashionable' to feel like that but it stems from my time as a churchgoer in my younger years.

[spot]

Imladris;921243 wrote: Blimey, I have no chance then!!!!!:-3:rolleyes:Nonsense. Acc picked up on one of my sentences a couple of weeks ago which wasn't even addressed at him and he's been puffing his chest like that ever since. God knows why, I haven't a clue what the sentence even was.

Here's Alison Smith-Squire's other "news stories" for 2008, they're every one of them sourced through "Feature World Your Online Media Agent" as far as I can see and the person interviewed came to her for a cash payment:IS THERE AN ADULTERY GENE? / DAILY MAIL (London), July 18, 2008 Friday, 2270 words, BY ALISON SMITH SQUIRE

Our marriage would have survived the trauma of my husband getting Parkinson's at 42. What killed it were the bizarre and shocking side effects of his drugs ...; Pills turned Mark into a gambling addict and he lost everything we'd always worked for - and my love / Mail on Sunday (London), July 6, 2008 Sunday, MS2; Pg. 21, 1865 words, ALISON SMITH-SQUIRE

EYELASH TINT LEFT ME LIKE THIS BLINDED FOR 3 DAYS / Sunday Mirror, June 15, 2008 Sunday, NEWS; Pg. 31, 346 words, BY ALISON SMITH-SQUIRE

Why freezing my eggs for infertile baby daughter may damage our marriage / The Sun (England), June 10, 2008 Tuesday, SUN WOMAN; INTERVIEW; LENA AND PHILIP BRENTNALL, 1253 words, Alison Smith-Squire

How far would you go to be a perfect size 10? / The Sun (England), June 4, 2008 Wednesday, SUN WOMAN, 1212 words, Sophie Mansell and Rebecca Ley

Mucca dumps girl with no legs / The News of the World (England), May 11, 2008 Sunday, EXCLUSIVE, 616 words, Alison Smith-Squire

All these children were born at less than 24 weeks - the current legal abortion limit. As a campaign is launched to lower the limit to 20 weeks, what do THEIR parents have to say? / Daily Mail (London), May 7, 2008 Wednesday, 2ND; Pg. 28, 2078 words

... by Diana Appleyard and Alison Smith-Squire..

A tomb of one's own; Mother faces £32,000 bill for skeletons found under her cottage / Daily Mail (London), April 21, 2008 Monday, 1ST; Pg. 23, 571 words, Alison Smith-Squire

Chilling phone Sinister warnings outside her Marianne's life was becoming a nightmare. Then she made the mistake of confiding in her best friend / Daily Mail (London), April 11, 2008 Friday, 1ST; Pg. 30, 1994 words, Alison Smith-Squire

The millionaire sculptor, his topless muse and a very bitter bust-up; She says they had a seven year affair. He denies everything. So what IS the truth? / Daily Mail (London), April 4, 2008 Friday, 1ST; Pg. 42, 1685 words, Alison Smith-Squire

YOUR LIFE: MELISSA WAS SO DESPERATE FOR A BABY, SHE BECAME A SINGLE MUM ..BY A SPERM DONOR; BEST FOR REAL LIFE EXCLUSIVES MELISSA MANLEY, 34, WANTED TO BE A MOTHER MORE THAN ANYTHING BUT WITH NO MR RIGHT IN SIGHT, SHE DECIDED TO GO IT ALONE

/ The Mirror, March 24, 2008 Monday, FEATURES; Pg. 31, 1042 words, BY ALISON SMITH-SQUIRE

I was 24st virgin, lost 13st..and found a man; EXCLUSIVE; News / Sunday Mirror (London, England), March 16, 2008, Pg. 29, 474 words

Your LIFE: I was facing 20 years in a foreign jail.. FOR A CRIME I DIDN'T COMMIT; BEST FOR REAL LIFE EXCLUSIVES Lora Malster, 21, was in Turkey and tucked up in bed with her boyfriend Cey when armed police smashed her front door down. She tells her story..; / Features The Mirror (London, England), March 10, 2008, Pg. 30, 1072 words

40 YEARS OF NAPPIES / The Sunday People, February 17, 2008 Sunday, 929 words, FELICIA BROMFIELD and ALISON SMITH-SQUIRE

Your LIFE: Always the bridesmaid.. These women are very used to walking down the aisle.. but never as brides. Will they ever get their own big day?; / Features The Mirror (London, England), February 15, 2008, Pg. 36, 1066 words

THE VALENTINE'S DIVORCEES; Did your husband forget to buy you a card this morning? Make sure he reads these salutary tales of women scorned and how they hit back ... / Daily Mail (London), February 14, 2008 Thursday, 1ST; Pg. 60, 2093 words, Alison Smith-Squire

"Mucca dumps girl with no legs" sounds entertaining.

[Imladris]

I rather like 'I was a 24st virgin......' :wah:

[spot]

Jester;921253 wrote: The UK outlawed abortion? I understood it to be legal there? So this whoel article is totally bogus?
"subject to the application of the Abortion Act 1967."

[spot]

Jester;921277 wrote: So to be clear, the UK does allow abortion, correct?

And to be clear abortion is the termination of a developing human being invetro, correct?


The reason for the words I use is to save me from having to quote the entire text of of the Abortion Act 1967 into the thread. "Abortion and child destruction remained illegal, subject to the application of the Abortion Act 1967" and the Abortion Act 1967 legalizes abortion in specified circumstances and with a specified cut-off period from conception none of which I've listed because it goes on for lots of paragraphs.

To be clear, abortion in the UK is the termination of pregnancy by procuring the miscarriage of a foetus. Those are the words in the Act of Parliament.

Here, purely for the record, is the Act. You'll notice that unlike US Federal legislation it's designed to be immediately meaningful.

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.as ... mmentary=1

[pantsonfire321@aol.com]

Jester;921323 wrote: Understood...

No having made my position clear on all points I shall bow out and let the remainder of this discussion revolve around the rest of your opinions. That way Pants wont come back and poo-poo me messing up her thread!


Jester it's ok, you have an opinion and feel the need to express it .

I don't think you've ruined the thread all and your right it's great to hear people who may not always post give their opinions... it's gets kinda boring when the same people monopolise every thread .



I also agree with who ever bought up the subject of her contraception. If the same things kept letting her down she should have used better stronger protection or if she didn't want to be pregnant she should have been sterilised .

...has anyone else noticed that when we have abortion topics it seems the guys are the ones who feel the strongest ...i have to say it kinda surprises me ..not sure why though

[spot]

pantsonfire321@aol.com;921525 wrote: ...has anyone else noticed that when we have abortion topics it seems the guys are the ones who feel the strongest ...i have to say it kinda surprises me ..not sure why though Abortion interests me far less than the manipulation of public opinion by gutter journalism.

[RedGlitter]

Hey Accountable, I'm sorry. You and I have been here before and we know how we feel about the issue so there's probably no need to do it again. I know I for one don't really want to rehash again how I feel about this stuff so I'm going to remove myself from the conversation. But I don't want you to think I'm angry at you because I'm not. We can have our differing opinions and I won't think a thing less of you.

See ya in a different thread! :-6