The Candidates on Illegal Immigration

[Accountable]

This is the first of hopefully several threads I want to start on various issues important to the presidency. I've chosen both representatives of the controlling party, and Bob Barr, candidate for Libertarian party. Of course I can add others if I think you're sincerely interested or you can add them yourself. I invite, even beg for, your input. We'll start with Illegal Immigration. I separated it from border security because that's an issue worthy of its own thread.



All three have something to say about deterring illegal immigration from within. Click on the name for source link.



Barack Obama

Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally: To remove incentives to enter the country illegally, we need to crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants. Barack Obama has championed a proposal with Senators Charles Grassley (R-IA), Ted Kennedy (D-MA) and Max Baucus (D-MT) to create a new employment eligibility verification system so employers can verify that their employees are legally eligible to work in the U.S.

Obama is predictably vague. Anybody know what he means by "crack down"?



Bob Barr

Equally important, we must end government benefits and services for illegal immigrants. Many local communities and states have begun to reduce payments to those who come here illegally, but a 1982 Supreme Court decision mandates that we provide education to the children of illegal immigrants. This detrimental ruling should be overturned through another Court challenge or a constitutional amendment.



Government and public hospitals also are forced to treat illegal immigrants for all manner of problems (over and above true emergency care). This costs states billions of dollars annually in medical costs. Private charities may support whomever they believe to be worthy of help, but taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize those who illegally enter America. Free health care and education benefits create a powerful economic incentive for illegal immigration.



The U.S. also should reconsider the policy of “birthright” citizenship. The members of Congress and state legislatures that approved the 14th Amendment (in the late 1860s) never imagined that their work would turn the children of tourists, as well as illegal migrants, into citizens. Although a constitutional amendment likely will be necessary to do this, America should join most of the countries of the world and require more the than location of birth to determine citizenship.

Barr's ideas arguably go too far, but not by a lot. He could never get the more extreme ideas through. More importantly, it gives a good indication of the kinds of legislation he would likely veto.



John McCain

Comprehensive Immigration Initiatives for a Secure Nation. Once the borders are secure, John McCain will:



Prosecute “Bad-Actor” Employers. John McCain will implement a secure, accurate, and reliable electronic employment verification system to ensure that individuals are screened for work eligibility in a real-time fashion. John McCain will use this new system in conjunction with other Department of Homeland Security resources to identify and aggressively prosecute employers that continue to hire illegal immigrants. The Electronic Employment Verification System will:


Establish a user-friendly system employing a limited set of secure documents that contain biometric data and are electronically verifiable to check a worker’s identity.

Provide responses to employer inquiries in a prompt and timely manner to provide both the employer and employee security in their hiring decisions.

Update and ensure the accuracy of current databases of government agencies that play a role in employment verification.

Protect the identities of each employee being screened and allow both employer and employee adequate time and opportunity to correct possible errors with any information in the system.

Institute targeted auditing by Department of Labor in order to weed out employers abusing the system.

Unless I'm wrong, McCain is talking about the RealID card, a national ID card. I find myself going back and forth on this one. a national ID card makes sense, but it has to be free and easily obtainable, yet extremely hard or expensive to counterfeit. I also worry about it being the "camel's nose under the tent" by linking it to too much information. The military ID card, for example, now has all a GI's information including pay records and medical files. I don't think such privacy should be invaded by a national ID card.



For me: SCORE ONE FOR BARR!

[K.Snyder]

Obama wrote: Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally: To remove incentives to enter the country illegally, we need to crack down on employers that hire undocumented immigrants. Barack Obama has championed a proposal with Senators Charles Grassley (R-IA), Ted Kennedy (D-MA) and Max Baucus (D-MT) to create a new employment eligibility verification system so employers can verify that their employees are legally eligible to work in the U.S.Exactly the type of campaign Obama has been preaching from the moment he made it evident from which his virtue seems to be all talk of what the people want to hear with no specifics whatsoever...He keeps talking "change"...What needs to be changed is his non informative plans to better this country as opposed to expressing his recognition..."Remove incentives"?...I could have said that...Remove jobs?...McCain 2008...

bobbar wrote: Equally important, we must end government benefits and services for illegal immigrants. Many local communities and states have begun to reduce payments to those who come here illegally, but a 1982 Supreme Court decision mandates that we provide education to the children of illegal immigrants. This detrimental ruling should be overturned through another Court challenge or a constitutional amendment. Oh I see...Take away their education...Now we not only have illegal immigrants here but uneducated illegal immigrants...Hmmm....:yh_think...



bobbar wrote:

Government and public hospitals also are forced to treat illegal immigrants for all manner of problems (over and above true emergency care). This costs states billions of dollars annually in medical costs. Private charities may support whomever they believe to be worthy of help, but taxpayers should not be forced to subsidize those who illegally enter America. Free health care and education benefits create a powerful economic incentive for illegal immigration. AKA: Let them die...:yh_think...Now we not only have uneducated illegal immigrants but unhealthy ones...Where's Ross Perot when you need him?...



McCain wrote:

Comprehensive Immigration Initiatives for a Secure Nation. Once the borders are secure, John McCain will:



Prosecute “Bad-Actor” Employers. John McCain will implement a secure, accurate, and reliable electronic employment verification system to ensure that individuals are screened for work eligibility in a real-time fashion. John McCain will use this new system in conjunction with other Department of Homeland Security resources to identify and aggressively prosecute employers that continue to hire illegal immigrants. The Electronic Employment Verification System will:


*Establish a user-friendly system employing a limited set of secure documents that contain biometric data and are electronically verifiable to check a worker’s identity.

Provide responses to employer inquiries in a prompt and timely manner to provide both the employer and employee security in their hiring decisions.

Update and ensure the accuracy of current databases of government agencies that play a role in employment verification.

Protect the identities of each employee being screened and allow both employer and employee adequate time and opportunity to correct possible errors with any information in the system.

Institute targeted auditing by Department of Labor in order to weed out employers abusing the system.

Unless I'm wrong, McCain is talking about the RealID card, a national ID card. I find myself going back and forth on this one. a national ID card makes sense, but it has to be free and easily obtainable, yet extremely hard or expensive to counterfeit. I also worry about it being the "camel's nose under the tent" by linking it to too much information. The military ID card, for example, now has all a GI's information including pay records and medical files. I don't think such privacy should be invaded by a national ID card.

McCain speaks of what should have been done decades ago...Can't help but wonder if it will just be another promise going unwarranted...at least the plan seems feasible...What's needed is it to not be corrupted...

[CARLA]

I agree AC just stopping the handing out of benefits to illegal's will stop them from coming. No free handout why go. I wish I could get some of the handout we give to people who are here legally in the first place.

Here is California illegal's are all you see in our emergency rooms and hospitals they have all the coverage the rest of us don't have.

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Bob Barr
Equally important, we must end government benefits and services for illegal immigrants[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

[K.Snyder]

CARLA;938308 wrote: I agree AC just stopping the handing out of benefits to illegal's will stop them from coming. No free handout why go. I wish I could get some of the handout we give to people who are here legally in the first place.

Here is California illegal's are all you see in our emergency rooms and hospitals they have all the coverage the rest of us don't have.


I can understand not wanting an influx of population making it harder for people to sustain work but Lord don't make the children suffer for the sins of thy father...

What was needed was the borders being controlled years ago...

What's needed is for illegal immigrants to be deported...It costs the government more to deport all of the illegal immigrants than it does to provide the sick with health care...What would be left is dying people on the streets...

The fact of the matter is is that they aloud it to happen in the first place...

[CARLA]

I agree KS but what is happening now with children of these illegals is they are coming across only to have babies which intern give that child US citizenship and a ton of benifits that are being handed out to families of these babies who's parents are still illegals. :-5:-5

[QUOTE]I can understand not wanting an influx of population making it harder for people to sustain work but Lord don't make the children suffer for the sins of thy father...

What was needed was the borders being controlled years ago...
__________________

[K.Snyder]

CARLA;938329 wrote: I agree KS but what is happening now with children of these illegals is they are coming across only to have babies which intern give that child US citizenship and a ton of benifits that are being handed out to families of these babies who's parents are still illegals. :-5:-5

__________________


I understand...

The head banging should be directed at those who let them over in the first place...

The "fiercest army in the world" and they're trying to convince people it was uncontrollable?...

No. They can sell that to people who'll buy it.

But those babies shouldn't be left to die...I'm American but I'll be damned if I'm not human first...And I understand how upsetting it is to have to give up your jobs but those kids had nothing to do with it...

[Accountable]

K.Snyder;938316 wrote: I can understand not wanting an influx of population making it harder for people to sustain work but Lord don't make the children suffer for the sins of thy father...



What was needed was the borders being controlled years ago...



What's needed is for illegal immigrants to be deported...It costs the government more to deport all of the illegal immigrants than it does to provide the sick with health care...What would be left is dying people on the streets...



The fact of the matter is is that they aloud it to happen in the first place...
You can lament the past if it helps you, but what's to be done from now?



It costs the government more to deport all of the illegal immigrants than it does to provide the sick with health care.. Do you have a source to support that?

[YZGI]

[quote=Jester;938546]Obama: Vague yes, and virtually the same as McCain allbeit it Mcain gets more specific.



McCain... what bothers me here is that they are going to attack employers? Geeze, its not my reponsibilty as an employer to guard the borders, its my governmemts responsibilty to guard the borders, as far as Im concerned anyone living in the US should be a legal worker. A also need to know his timeline for closing the border since all this hinges on him waiting till its secured?



Mr Barr gets my vote here on this issue... But he's not doing enough in my opinion, we need a round up and mass deportation of all illegals and we need to shoot everyone that crosses our border at any place other than a designated legal crossing.



I agree to the birth issue he raises... birthright, plus parent citizenship is a must now, unless we secure our border properly then I agree to just birthright citizenship.



Anyone want to elect me, Just Write in 'Jester'



'If your not in this country legally you get nothing buit a boot in yer butt all the way across the border.'



That's J-E-S-T-E-R.[/quote]

So the entire name is capitalized?





Does it stand for..



J=just

E=earn

S=stripes

T=to

E=enter

R=rightfully

[along-for-the-ride]

The company I work for already implements a verification program for all new-hires. Thus, no illlegal immigrants have been hired. They must find work elsewhere. So this program does work.



The valuable human resources of Mexican descent and illegal status do need to return to their own homeland. Perhaps, united as a valuable human resource, they can make Mexico a better country to raise their families. If Mexico doesn't offer them what they need to make a living, they don't need to leave it.......they need to stay and try to fix it. Where is their Mexican pride? JMO

[Accountable]

along-for-the-ride;938625 wrote: The company I work for already implements a verification program for all new-hires. Thus, no illlegal immigrants have been hired. They must find work elsewhere. So this program does work.





The valuable human resources of Mexican descent and illegal status do need to return to their own homeland. Perhaps, united as a valuable human resource, they can make Mexico a better country to raise their families. If Mexico doesn't offer them what they need to make a living, they don't need to leave it.......they need to stay and try to fix it. Where is their Mexican pride? JMO
Well stated! :yh_clap :yh_clap

[K.Snyder]

Accountable;938382 wrote: You can lament the past if it helps you, but what's to be done from now?



It costs the government more to deport all of the illegal immigrants than it does to provide the sick with health care.. Do you have a source to support that?


It's common knowledge...

Either

1) I'm underestimating the amount of sick illegal immigrants and yes I do realize welfare is a big problem associated with illegal immigrants as well or,

2) It would cost a significant amount of tax payers' dollars in deporting the amount of illegal immigrants we have here now as a) The businesses that condone or willingly accept illegal immigrants to work for them would have to be monitored as well as being issued citations upon their breach of priorities...Which would take a very competent and sophisticated form of intelligence...b) Huge operations conducted to transport them back to Mexico...We're talking millions of people...c) Huge operations to even catch illegal immigrants upon gaining an understanding of who they are to begin with...What would be the plan?...Set up a soccer game between the US and Mexico and then lock the gates after kick off?...Upon the succession of that would need to be implemented about 200 more times to maybe even then deport 1/4 of them back to Mexico...Only 600 USA vs Mexico games left...

[K.Snyder]

Accountable;938382 wrote: You can lament the past if it helps you, but what's to be done from now?




Preventing health care for children of any creed is just inhumane...I would go as far to say the same thing about education as it tends to lead to more crime...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;938546 wrote: Obama: Vague yes, and virtually the same as McCain allbeit it Mcain gets more specific.

McCain... what bothers me here is that they are going to attack employers? Geeze, its not my reponsibilty as an employer to guard the borders, its my governmemts responsibilty to guard the borders, as far as Im concerned anyone living in the US should be a legal worker. A also need to know his timeline for closing the border since all this hinges on him waiting till its secured? The problem is that employers seek to employ illegal immigrants because it enhances their profits...I wouldn't think for a minute that the majority of employers to whom employ illegal immigrants do it because it's convenient...Not primarily...In fact, far from it...And is a much better solution than depriving people within our own country with absolutely no health care whatsoever(Inhumane) nor providing them with an adequate education(More ignorance leads to more unethical choices)...Add desperation to the mix and you have a country wide crime spree on your hands...

Jester;938546 wrote:

Mr Barr gets my vote here on this issue... But he's not doing enough in my opinion, we need a round up and mass deportation of all illegals and we need to shoot everyone that crosses our border at any place other than a designated legal crossing.

I agree to the birth issue he raises... birthright, plus parent citizenship is a must now, unless we secure our border properly then I agree to just birthright citizenship. I can't agree with any of what Barr has to offer although I can at least understand the birth right logic...If this was to surpass however not only do we have unhealthy illegal immigrants leading to criminal delinquency by virtue of inferior education we have unhealthy illegal immigrants leading to criminal delinquency from which encourages hit and miss tactics...Not good at all...The children being born in America will develop the American dialect and even culture to a great extent making it even that much harder to seek out illegal immigrants...I don't see any of these solutions helping at all...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;938560 wrote: Agreed... but he is the self declared 'hope for the world'...:rolleyes:

I am not thier keeper, they are not citizens of the US, NO TIT for them. They made their choice to live here illegally and took thier chances... so the great giant tit ends here and now, too stinking bad. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever and I can be as cold hearted about it as need be. Let them go get thier own education they have a country to go to, its not like they are opressed (speaking here of the mexicans)




Jester;938564 wrote: Again, the majority of the illegals we are talking about come from a country where education and medical care is available, no its not free (but they do have public education) Send these hard workers back across the border to deal with their own contries problems and fix it there for themselves. And take thier kids with them too. They are not the governments responsibility. Not your and not mine. The only solution is to end all benifits and send them home.

In my town that will mean the closure of three elmentary schools and probably make it easier on the three higschools.

If you want to save them from dying then lets get them turned in and deported so they can get the help from thier own government.


Well the problem is one side having to clean up the other sides' God awful mess...It should have never been aloud to progress/digress to begin with...

But what you're misunderstanding in regards to not giving these people adequate health care(All be it if needed -- No hand outs) and education your hurting the American people by subjecting them to uneducated peoples...And neglecting people to whom need healthcare is just cold...

40% of Mexicos' population consist of peoples below the poverty line...I don't know about anyone else but the poverty line in Mexico isn't like your local hobo on the streets of America...surely this has to be grounds for sympathy...

It's Purely a death sentence...

[K.Snyder]

along-for-the-ride;938625 wrote:

If Mexico doesn't offer them what they need to make a living, they don't need to leave it.......they need to stay and try to fix it. Where is their Mexican pride? JMO


1982 crisis and recovery



The macroeconomic policies of the 1970s left Mexico's economy highly vulnerable to external conditions. These turned sharply against Mexico in the early 1980s, and caused the worst recession since the 1930s. By mid-1981, Mexico was beset by falling oil prices, higher world interest rates, rising inflation, a chronically overvalued peso, and a deteriorating balance of payments that spurred massive capital flight. This disequilibrium, along with the virtual disappearance of Mexico's international reserves--by the end of 1982 they were insufficient to cover three weeks' imports--forced the government to devalue the peso three times during 1982. The devaluation further fueled inflation and prevented short-term recovery. The devaluations depressed real wages and increased the private sector's burden in servicing its dollar-denominated debt. Interest payments on long-term debt alone were equal to 28 percent of export revenue. Cut off from additional credit, the government declared an involuntary moratorium on debt payments in August 1982, and the following month it announced the nationalization of Mexico's private banking system.

By late 1982, incoming President Miguel de la Madrid had to reduce public spending drastically, stimulate exports, and foster economic growth to balance the national accounts. Recovery was extremely slow to materialize, however. The economy stagnated throughout the 1980s as a result of continuing negative terms of trade, high domestic interest rates, and scarce credit. Widespread fears that the government might fail to achieve fiscal balance and have to expand the money supply and raise taxes deterred private investment and encouraged massive capital flight that further increased inflationary pressures. The resulting reduction in domestic savings impeded growth, as did the government's rapid and drastic reductions in public investment and its raising of real domestic interest rates to deter capital flight.

Mexico's GDP grew at an average rate of just 0.1 percent per year between 1983 and 1988, while inflation stayed extremely high. Public consumption grew at an average annual rate of less than 2 percent, and private consumption not at all. Total investment fell at an average annual rate of 4 percent and public investment at an 11 percent pace. Throughout the 1980s, the productive sectors of the economy contributed a decreasing share to GDP, while the services sectors expanded their share, reflecting the rapid growth of the informal economy and the change from good emplois to bad ones (services jobs). De la Madrid's stabilization strategy imposed high social costs: real disposable income per capita fell 5 percent each year between 1983 and 1988. High levels of unemployment and underemployment, especially in rural areas, stimulated migration to Mexico City and to the United States.

By 1988 inflation was at last under control, fiscal and monetary discipline attained, relative price adjustment achieved, structural reform in trade and public-sector management underway, and the preconditions for recovery in place. But these positive developments were inadequate to attract foreign investment and return capital in sufficient quantities for sustained recovery. A shift in development strategy became necessary, predicated on the need to generate a net capital inflow.

In April 1989, President Carlos Salinas de Gortari announced his government's national development plan for 1989-94, which called for annual GDP growth of 6 percent and an inflation rate similar to those of Mexico's main trading partners. Salinas planned to achieve this sustained growth by boosting the investment share of GDP and by encouraging private investment through denationalization of state enterprises and deregulation of the economy. His first priority was to reduce Mexico's external debt; in mid-1989 the government reached agreement with its commercial bank creditors to reduce its medium- and long-term debt. The following year, Salinas took his next step toward higher capital inflows by lowering domestic borrowing costs, reprivatizing the banking system, and broaching the idea of a free-trade agreement with the United States. These announcements were soon followed by increased levels of capital repatriation and foreign investment.

Due to the financial crisis that took place in 1981, the total public investment on infrastructure plummeted from 12.5% of GDP to 3.5% in 1989. After rising impressively during the early years of Salinas' presidency, the growth rate of real GDP began to slow during the early 1990s. During 1993 the economy grew by a negligible amount, but growth rebounded to almost 4 percent during 1994, as fiscal and monetary policy were relaxed and foreign investment was bolstered by United States ratification of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). In 1994 the commerce and services sectors accounted for 22 percent of Mexico's total GDP. Manufacturing followed at 20 percent; transport and communications at 10 percent; agriculture, forestry, and fishing at 8 percent; construction at 5 percent; mining at 2 percent; and electricity, gas, and water at 2 percent (services 80%, industry and mining 12%, agriculture 8%) (see fig. 9). Some two-thirds of GDP in 1994 (67 percent) was spent on private consumption, 11 percent on public consumption, and 22 percent on fixed investment. During 1994 private consumption rose by 4 percent, public consumption by 2 percent, public investment by 9 percent, and private investment by 8 percent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_h ... d_recovery

1994 crisis and recovery



The collapse of the new peso in December 1994 and the ensuing economic crisis caused the economy to contract by an estimated 7 percent during 1995. Investment and consumption both fell sharply, the latter by some 10 percent. Agriculture, livestock, and fishing contracted by 4 percent; mining by 1 percent; manufacturing by 6 percent; construction by 22 percent; and transport, storage, and communications by 2 percent. The only sector to register positive growth was utilities, which expanded by 3 percent.

By 1996 Mexican government and independent analysts saw signs that the country had begun to emerge from its economic recession. The economy contracted by a modest 1 percent during the first quarter of 1996. The Mexican government reported strong growth of 7 percent for the second quarter, and the Union Bank of Switzerland forecast economic growth of 4 percent for all of 1996.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_h ... d_recovery

along-for-the-ride;938625 wrote: The company I work for already implements a verification program for all new-hires. Thus, no illlegal immigrants have been hired. They must find work elsewhere. So this program does work.

The valuable human resources of Mexican descent and illegal status do need to return to their own homeland. Perhaps, united as a valuable human resource, they can make Mexico a better country to raise their families. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_h ... d_recovery

Present

According to the director for Mexico at the World Bank, the population in extreme poverty has decreased from 24.2% to 17.6% in the general population and from 42% to 27.9% in rural areas from 2000-2004. Nonetheless, income inequality remains a problem, and huge gaps remain not only between rich and poor but also between the north and the south, and between urban and rural areas. Sharp contrasts in income and Human Development are also a grave problem in Mexico. The 2004 United Nations Human Development Index report for Mexico states that Benito Juárez, a district of the Distrito Federal, and San Pedro Garza García, in the State of Nuevo León, would have a similar level of economic, educational and life expectancy development to Germany or New Zealand. In contrast, Metlatonoc, in the state of Guerrero, would have an HDI similar to that of Syria.

Many of the positive effects in poverty reduction and the increase in purchasing power of the middle class are attributed to the macroeconomic stability pursued by the last two administrations. GDP annual average growth for the period of 1995–2002 was 5.1%. The economic downturn in the United States also caused a similar pattern in Mexico, from which it rapidly recovered to grow 4.1% in 2005 and 3% in 2005. Inflation has reached a record low of 3.3% in 2005, and interest rates are low, which have spurred credit-consumption in the middle class. Mexico has experienced in the last decade monetary stability: the budget deficit was further reduced and foreign debt was decreased to less than 20% of GDP. Along with Chile, Mexico has the highest rating of long-term sovereign credit in Latin America. The remittances from Mexican citizens working in the United States account only for 2% of Mexico's economy which reaches US$20 billion dollars per year and is the third largest source of foreign income after oil and industrial exports.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Economy

Let's hope the Mexican people can prosper given the recent economical change in Mexico...

[scholle-kid]

K.Snyder;939096 wrote: Preventing health care for children of any creed is just inhumane...I would go as far to say the same thing about education as it tends to lead to more crime...


While their little kids are getting a free education in our schools and the wives are spending their free food stamps in our walmarts and their teenage cousins are in the hospitals giving birth to more anchor babies ,the husbands and boyfriends are out driving around drinking and selling drugs while looking for homes of hard working Americans to rob while the owners are at work paying their taxes into the welfare and school systems ,,IMO

[K.Snyder]

scholle-kid;939107 wrote: While their little kids are getting a free education in our schools and the wives are spending their free food stamps in our walmarts and their teenage cousins are in the hospitals giving birth to more anchor babies ,the husbands and boyfriends are out driving around drinking and selling drugs while looking for homes of hard working Americans to rob while the owners are at work paying their taxes into the welfare and school systems ,,IMO


Completely different issue...

Which adds to my belief that taking away the birthrights of children descendants of illegal immigrants born in America will only prolong this...

They're getting those benefits free because there is no way to account for them...

What we're after is preventing more of them from coming over here as well as possibly deporting a great majority of them back to Mexico without the tax payers' dollars being used to a greater extent than from which they are in allowing them to stay...

K.Snyder wrote:

The "fiercest army in the world" and they're trying to convince people it was uncontrollable?...

No. They can sell that to people who'll buy it.


I personally feel it should have been prevented ages ago but people to whom had to invest in such a piece of legislature found it in their best interests to allow illegal immigrants to burden the U.S. economy...

They've built the Great Wall of China in the 6th century BC yet we can't build a fence in a desert...

No. They can sell that to people who'll buy it.

[K.Snyder]

K.Snyder;939108 wrote:

What we're after is preventing more of them from coming over here as well as possibly deporting a great majority of them back to Mexico without the tax payers' dollars being used to a greater extent than from which they are in allowing them to stay...




Sorry...I suppose what I meant to say is "this is what I'm after" considering I find it inhumane to neglect people to whom need medical attention...Neglecting a peoples' right to an education is also a bad idea, as I believe ignorance leads to unethical choices and, in my own opinion, I consider ignorance to be the worst characteristic associated with mankind...

If you have any ideas as to how we could rid the tax payers of the extenuated relinquishing of their money in correlation to it being more affordable than deportation I would love to hear them...

What's need is the cutting off of illegal immigrants within 100% effectiveness of their ability to gain access into this country at the same time enforcing strict penalties to businesses that employ them with 0% receptiveness to bribery associated with the enforcement pertaining to such a mandated endeavor...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;942465 wrote: No your not getting it Kev, 'we' dont have anything here, what 'we' have is our own idiginous population to suport and care for through charity not a government hand out, which suddenly becomes manageable when 'we' deport the ones that are illegal. Im not saying to deny them services and leave them here, Im saying deny them services and DEPORT them... Let the mexican govenernment care for them they belong there, not here.


Deporting illegal immigrants while being less cost prolific than that from which would by providing the sick with adequate health care and the people with adequate education otherwise would take the most sophisticated intelligence on top of the most sophisticated incarceration operation I've ever even imagined...

The problem is deporting illegal immigrants one at a time would cost 10 times the amount than the tax payers' money being used as is...

Here's my question...

How do we go about deporting them?...

If you me "we" as in philosophically I can agree with that based on a cultural and economical standpoint...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;942472 wrote: Kev, its not our problem, those born under the hand of a soverign nation who have a legitimate government need to care for thier own.

I dont know how to say this without being cold hearted, but its not our responsibilty to pay for the social welfare of another countries population. They have nothing in mexico because they arentwillign to stand up and fight to mak eit better, how is that my problem? Mexico is corrupt let the people have a revolution and make it better. I'll help them to help themselves but I wont let them come in and suck us dry. I understand you sentiment Jester honestly I do...But you're talking about idealism...I know we shouldn't have to pay for their health care and adequate education,..but we should pay for their health care and adequate education because it's the humane thing to do...I've already said it shouldn't have happened in the first place...It's not like I'm asking them to come over here...The fact of the matter is is hat they are over here...And because of this "our side" is the one paying for it while the "other side" are the ones benefiting from it...

The Mexican economy is doing much better than it once was...The government needs to stop being aligned with Pesos and take care of a problem that can get too out of control...

Jester;942472 wrote:

I just paid 4000 bucks to the local hospital becasue my emplyee got bit by a dog. He got 2 stitches, four pain pills and a weeks worth of antibiotics... I just paid out of my own hard earned cash for 30 visits of indigent care. (that was less than 90 minutes in the ER and in actualt time spent one on one with a caregiver and not 'waiting' was 11 minutes total... $4000. for 11 minites and 18 pills and two stitches... tell me that is not a TAX?

Why? because guess what, our government isnt paying for it, you and I are, every stinking time we need healthcare.


The government doesn't have to get involved other than enforcing laws that goes against the well being of humanity...At least not directly...

Hospitals are like corporate businesses...In fact they are...If it were up to me they'd all be governmentally owned as well as affordable to all peoples but until that happens you're going to be charged $4000 for a damn scratch...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;942473 wrote: Bull Crap... I could raise an army of deputies in less than a week 500 strong and town by town in a year we'd sweep them south across the border. 80% woudl leave when the first shot was fired.

And that would only be a last resort... put the word out that the local police will now detain any illegal and deport them and the rush south will be fast and furious.


500 men and/or women to carry out intelligence, arrest, temporarily detain, and deport over 20 million peoples from all over the United States of America?...

Man they're taking my jobs and I live 1500 miles away from the Mexico border...

Once they get word of any task force seeking them out they're going to be spread out all over the United States...

[K.Snyder]

JAB;942474 wrote: If my family could apply and wait until we got proper authority to immigrate, so can the illegals.

If my family was seperated for a year because they first would only allow my dad to come over leaving my mom with 3 daughters and pregnant with me, so can the illegals.

If my family had to struggle to make ends meet while learning a new language so that the struggle was short-lived, so can the illegals.

Plain and simple, the illegals broke the law. Yes, even as an immigrant I resent the fact of them shunning the laws of the country they are so wanting to be a part of. Talk about a slap in the face.


That's because you're American...:yh_bigsmi...Well,..Polish-American...

I'm German-American with great indications that I have Scottish, Irish, and Native heritage as well...

My grandmothers' side of the family on my fathers' side was from West Virginia and they bore the name "McClure", Sept of Clan MacLeod of Harris and Skye...My grandfather from my mothers' side bore the name "Manary" from which my mother's told me it were Irish...

My grandmother from my fathers' side has said we have Native American heritage as well...

The rest of me is by far German...My mothers' side of her family, excluding my grandfather(her father), are from Germany...My great-grandmother from her side is from East Prussia and my great-grandfather to whom met her in America was from Germany as well...

Obviously by me bearing the name "Snyder" my grandfather from my fathers' side of the family I'm assuming is from Germany as well...Don't know too many Spaniards with the name "Snyder"...:yh_wink...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;942490 wrote: There are tens of thousands of men willing to be deputized to scour the fields and the towns and deport illegals... as we speak.

And the illelgals wont be lined up in the ER's and they wont be seeking jobs and all they will be doing is finding a way out of america, and all we have to do is set up water and food stations on all southern rail routes to mexico and declare it a free walk home... have flat rail cars driving slowly along headed south 24/7.

Patrol it with low flying CAP flights, and let the deputies patrol the sidelines.

Itsnot right to punish the emplolyeers, it is the governments responsibilty to secure the borders, an employeer shoudlnt have to worry about any person living in america being a legal worker, ever and I shouldnt have ot pay for anyone elses healthcare but my own and my families.


I'd close the borders and give them citizenship...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;942503 wrote: I figured you would bud! and thats ok too, but they pay their own way, and they pay back what they took illegally, no matter how long it takes even if thier chidlren have to pay thier bills... We simply estimate how much each man woman and child cost the US taxpayer and forward the cost, when they pay they can have citizenship, in the meantime to stop them from having hundreds of thousands of kids who get automatic citizenship those kids born in the US after the amnesty program , gets to pay the same price for citizenship, we close the borders and anyone new who crosses gets a round between the eyes.

Deal?


That would be a set back upon the plan I had in mind...

Give all illegal immigrants citizenship...Citizenship which can be taxed...Not only would there be roughly 20 million more taxable citizens but by them being here still being willing to work for cheap would ultimately keep millions upon millions of jobs from going overseas...Not only would more jobs be readily available to those newly appointed citizens but there would be considerably more jobs for other lower income working peoples and families...

We've kept a significant amount of jobs from going overseas as well as boosted the economy not to mention made healthier lifestyles for an already poorer population we have now...

How's that sound?...

[K.Snyder]

JAB;942518 wrote: I consider myself American with a Polish heritage. I'm not ashamed to say I was born there but I don't refer to myself as Polish American.


Oh...

Well it doesn't really matter does it?...

I mean, we're all human...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;942535 wrote: Bad... I want my money back, I want my taxes back that they stole from me. They are thieves. illegal thieves, why should I tolerate that?

If we make them legal more will come, it happens everytime.

No citizenship, only guest workers, and they pay us to work here, they pay us back all they stole until they dont owe anymore.


Sorry I should have emphasized I were 100% completely and utterly for the building of an impenetrable wall...Obviously I don't want any more illegal immigrants over here either...

But on that note I think my plan works while emphasizing that you're placing the blame on the wrong people...It's not the illegal immigrants fault for wanting a better life...I mean Mexicos' poverty percentages were abysmal upon most of the illegal immigration influxes...I mean I have no problem for people wanting to actual make it to see their 55th birthday...

There can't be idealism meeting realism in a state of problem...If that happens then the ideals are obviously bad...I'm talking about a solution for the present problem we have now...The blame needs to go to the United States' government for allowing it to happen...

But in any case I think you'd be reimbursed upon the amounts of jobs being readily available not only to the newly appointed citizens but the unemployed from which we have now ultimately creating more citizens paying taxes ultimately relieving you in having to pay as much taxes as you do now...

[K.Snyder]

Jester;942535 wrote: ...why should I tolerate that?




On that note why should you tolerate the United States government for allowing it to happen?...

[Accountable]

K.Snyder;942470 wrote: Deporting illegal immigrants [,,,] would take the most sophisticated intelligence on top of the most sophisticated incarceration operation I've ever even imagined...That's a common excuse I hear from people that think we're under some kind of obligation to feed & house these criminals. It doesn't have to happen in one day. When they're found out they're reported & deported. We send the bill to the Mexican gov't. When Mexico wants something from us we wave the unpaid receipts in their face. The message will spread like wildfire and the illegal entries will slow to a drip (it'll never stop because some people never learn).K.Snyder;942475 wrote: I understand you sentiment Jester honestly I do...But you're talking about idealism...I know we shouldn't have to pay for their health care and adequate education,..but we should pay for their health care and adequate education because it's the humane thing to doIt's not the humane thing to do! It's a cruel cruel thing to lead someone to believe they can somehow "make it" by breaking the law. The humane thing to do would be to close off the pipe dream and stop dangling the bait of free food, housing, and education to criminals.JAB;942474 wrote: If my family could apply and wait until we got proper authority to immigrate, so can the illegals.

If my family was seperated for a year because they first would only allow my dad to come over leaving my mom with 3 daughters and pregnant with me, so can the illegals.

If my family had to struggle to make ends meet while learning a new language so that the struggle was short-lived, so can the illegals.

Plain and simple, the illegals broke the law. Yes, even as an immigrant I resent the fact of them shunning the laws of the country they are so wanting to be a part of. Talk about a slap in the face.
K.Snyder;942495 wrote: That's because you're American......Well,..Polish-American...It's fair to expect more from Europeans than from Central & South Americans?? How so?

K.Snyder;942499 wrote: I'd close the borders and give them citizenship...I suppose if someone broke into your house and started eating your food, you'd add their name to the mailbox?K.Snyder;942539 wrote: On that note why should you tolerate the United States government for allowing it to happen?...
Asbsolutely agree there!! :yh_clap



That's what happens when people vote for the lesser of two evils, especially when there are other options available.

[K.Snyder]

Accountable;942719 wrote: That's a common excuse I hear from people that think we're under some kind of obligation to feed & house these criminals. It doesn't have to happen in one day. When they're found out they're reported & deported. We send the bill to the Mexican gov't. When Mexico wants something from us we wave the unpaid receipts in their face. The message will spread like wildfire and the illegal entries will slow to a drip (it'll never stop because some people never learn). "We're" being humane...You're once again placing the blame on the Mexicans, in this instance, but still seem to agree on K.Snyder wrote: ...why should you tolerate the United States government for allowing it to happen?......I'm wondering how you've come to that conclusion...How they're "criminals" yet agree that that the blame should be divided...On the same note how would you expect to keep more illegal immigrants from entering the Unites States of America after having worsened their economy by retribution?...To add to the fact that their entire motive for entering this country were exactly the same as your ancestors'...You're blaming the wrong people.

Accountable;942719 wrote:

It's not the humane thing to do! It's a cruel cruel thing to lead someone to believe they can somehow "make it" by breaking the law. The humane thing to do would be to close off the pipe dream and stop dangling the bait of free food, housing, and education to criminals.This is easy for someone to whom has been eating with a golden spoon their entire life to say...I can't understand why you can't empathize with these people...40% poverty rate is a day in the park with roses to you I suppose...

Accountable;942719 wrote:

It's fair to expect more from Europeans than from Central & South Americans?? How so?I don't know what you're talking about in this instance...I was recognizing that JAB had stated she was born of Polish heritage...

Accountable;942719 wrote:

I suppose if someone broke into your house and started eating your food, you'd add their name to the mailbox? Mine specifically they'd be a criminal because I don't have extra money that I'm not sharing equally...If I were as well off as the entire country of the United States I'd expect them to break into my house,..because they needed it...I condemn people to whom do not share that in which they do not need more, and in alot of cases expectedly, than those to whom steal in order to live a fruitful life...People to whom have more than they need and do not share are evil. Pure and simple.

Accountable;942719 wrote:

Asbsolutely agree there!! :yh_clap



That's what happens when people vote for the lesser of two evils, especially when there are other options available. :)No it's what happens when the people to whom are voted in office don't put up a wall.

[K.Snyder]

Jester;943109 wrote: I dont. They are equally as guilty, as I said, the ones who allowed it need to be voted out of office and then vote in the ones who will do what we want.


Finally we're at the point of motive associated with possibility...

Do you feel that it were easier for the United States government to put up a wall to prohibit illegal immigrants from gaining entry in this country or do you feel it were/is easier for all Mexicans to live fruitfully in Mexico given it's state of economy?...

[Accountable]

K.Snyder;944738 wrote: "We're" being humane...You're once again placing the blame on the Mexicans, in this instance, but still seem to agree on ..[why should you tolerate the United States government for allowing it to happen?...].I'm wondering how you've come to that conclusion...How they're "criminals" yet agree that that the blame should be divided...I don't know how it could be more obvious. They're breaking the law. Those who break the law are criminals. Place the blame of crime on criminals. Those that are supposed to be enforcing the law aren't, which sets an incentive for more to break the law - to become criminals. Place the blame for allowing criminal activity to continue on the gov't. Simple.

K.Snyder wrote: On the same note how would you expect to keep more illegal immigrants from entering the Unites States of America after having worsened their economy by retribution?...To add to the fact that their entire motive for entering this country were exactly the same as your ancestors'...You're blaming the wrong people.Neither of these statements are relevant to the subject. They're criminals



K.Snyder wrote: This is easy for someone to whom has been eating with a golden spoon their entire life to say...I can't understand why you can't empathize with these people...40% poverty rate is a day in the park with roses to you I suppose...Golden spoon?? You think I'm rich?

My statement is a shining example of empathy. Yours is sympathy. There's a huge difference. Mine rewards proper behavior; yours encourages criminal behavior.



K.Snyder wrote: I don't know what you're talking about in this instance...I was recognizing that JAB had stated she was born of Polish heritage...She stated quite plainly that her family immigrated here legally and therefore the illegals should also. You responded "That's because you're American......Well,..Polish-American..." Given the context, it's plain you were saying that Europeans should be expected to follow the law but Central & South Americans should not have to meet the same standard. It's easy to see how I misinterpreted your post.



K.Snyder wrote: Mine specifically they'd be a criminal because I don't have extra money that I'm not sharing equally...:wah: You kill me with this. Theft is not theft if you decide the victim had extra. So one can't steal from rich people.

[K.Snyder]

Accountable;944902 wrote: I don't know how it could be more obvious. They're breaking the law. Those who break the law are criminals. Place the blame of crime on criminals. Those that are supposed to be enforcing the law aren't, which sets an incentive for more to break the law - to become criminals. Place the blame for allowing criminal activity to continue on the gov't. Simple.

Neither of these statements are relevant to the subject. They're criminals For the record I understand both yours' and Jesters' logic pertaining to this matter but I have to disagree in which peoples you're placing more of the blame on...Yes technically the illegal immigrants who gain entry into this country are being criminal, with the exception of those to whom do not realize it's against the law(Just speaking logically, with no implications), but the people to whom have the ability, by virtue of lesser effort, to place a barrier blockading illegal entry into this country are the ones that should be blamed to a much greater extent than the illegal immigrants...It's more of the US' fault than it is the illegal immigrants'...I wouldn't leave a candy bar on the kitchen table after having told a two year old not to eat it and expect for one minute that he wouldn't...The logical solution would be to put the candy bar on top of the refrigerator...Upon the two year old eating it, knowing full well he's been told not to, the parent is more to blame because they'd placed it where the two year old could get it...



Accountable;944902 wrote:

Golden spoon?? You think I'm rich?

My statement is a shining example of empathy. Yours is sympathy. There's a huge difference. Mine rewards proper behavior; yours encourages criminal behavior. I think people born in America eat with a golden spoon by virtue of opportunity...And that I know full well you agree on...



Accountable;944902 wrote:

She stated quite plainly that her family immigrated here legally and therefore the illegals should also. You responded "That's because you're American......Well,..Polish-American..." Given the context, it's plain you were saying that Europeans should be expected to follow the law but Central & South Americans should not have to meet the same standard. It's easy to see how I misinterpreted your post. I was responding to her stating JAB wrote: Yes, even as an immigrant I resent the fact of them shunning the laws of the country they are so wanting to be a part of. Talk about a slap in the face.meaning that she resented the specific illegal immigrants to whom broke the law...It's perfectly adjacent...Everyone should abide by the law...I'm just not ready to deprive people of health care because of it,..nor am I ready to deprive them of an adequate education because far worse be it uneducated peoples than evil men...



Accountable;944902 wrote:

:wah: You kill me with this. Theft is not theft if you decide the victim had extra. So one can't steal from rich people.Yes, but only if those to whom are doing the stealing need what they're stealing from those to whoms' livelihood is not in jeopardy in order to survive with adequate health. In such instances the persons', to whom is doing what others consider to be stealing, act becomes justifiable.

[K.Snyder]

Jester;945115 wrote: Kev, your not getting it, mexico is mexico its not the united states, I have no moral obligation to care for mexicans on US soil.

Let them go home and eat cake for all I care. They are not my problem unless they are here illegally. Then they need to be shoved back over the border and we need to enforce the border crossings.

I dont care whats easier, we need to fix the problem at the border, and deport all illegals to thier country of origin.


Right I absolutely agree...The question brings up from which of the two variables is more to blame ultimately rendering empathy an obligatory virtue of endearment...

I blame the United States government more than I blame the illegal immigrants...But this doesn't dictate my stance in whether or not I'm willing to give adequate health care to peoples of any creed whom absolutely need it...

And depriving people of education only hurts your children because they will then be exposed to indecisive, and ignorant choices...

[YZGI]

Posted by K.Snyder:

People to whom have more than they need and do not share are evil. Pure and simple.





Most people who have more than they need likely worked hard for it and earned it. If they give it away, what is the incentive for the needy to work and earn their own?



K, you have more than you need if you have more 1 pair of socks, pants, shoes, or shirts. To what extreme do you propose we go?