Patriotism: Good? Bad? Why?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:43 am

How do you feel about patriotism for one's country? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Is it cut and dried one or the other or is it a little bit of both?

I credit Spot for this topic as he doesn't care for patriotism. Perhaps there are others here who feel the same way. It is a hot button issue so please let's stay civil. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:34 am

PATRIOT

A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

PATRIOTIC

Having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

I cant say im either of those to be honest. I am proud to be British and their are things I love and things I detest about the United Kingdom...

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:37 am

pa·tri·ot·ism - devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

pa·tri·ot

a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.

a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

(dictionary.com unabridged)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Loyalty and devotion are good things so long as they do not lead to behavior that runs counter to one's personal values. I believe many people think patriotism is blind loyalty. It is not. I also believe that some people have never felt patriotism and so don't understand it. That is sad. It's really cool to be a part of something that is larger than oneself.

ETA: I'm not disagreeing with Chezzie, she's just faster than me.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:48 am

fuzzy butt;943865 wrote: nor do I think that patriotism is all that flash. Quite frankly i think it's quite evil. It's just another god beside god. I look at the responces at western civilisations concerning the japanese Emperor being a god and the chinese Emperor being a god and compare it to what we think is a god and it's called "For flag and country" that aint a good thing, and it's no different. You are actually putting a flag and government before your own thoughts. WHY?

when you get sucked into patriotism you stop thinking . You allow others to think for you. that's never a good thing. Ever!!!!!!
You owe your life, liberty, and standard of living to patriots. Of course, part of the freedom they fought, bled, and died for is the freedom for you to feel contempt for their sacrifice, so feel free to **** on their graves.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:50 am

fuzzy butt;943866 wrote: Acc. give me your thoughts not your governmets
What on earth makes you think these are not my thoughts?? :-2

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:02 am

IMHO, patriotism is just an exterior expression of loyalty. If you are not loyal to your country, your no good to it.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:10 am

I come from a military minded family. I believe ones country and it's military are the same. My country has a military. My sons and kin were part of it. How can you seperate it?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:12 am

fuzzy butt;943891 wrote: Okay i want a seperation of military patriotism to everyday patriotism.

can we have that please?
No.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:28 am

fuzzy butt;943907 wrote: Okay then, never ever put down a kamakasi pilot for what he did for his country. He gave his life before he ever even took off from the ground

Never ever put down terrorists for their beliefs. Never put down any enemy you have for attacking you because they are being patriotic towards their government or cause.

And dont' torture them in the name of terrorism because they do this.

Cause they are just being like you .........................patriotic

I agree, and I admire their patriotism. I also believe in what Gen. George Patton said. Don't die for your country. Make them SOB'S die for theirs.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:41 am

blind patriotism-my country right or wrong is a bad thing. free people are patriotic but they don't just follow leaders blindly no matter what. anyone that accuses a critic of a government or it's leaders unpatriotic is a fascist not a patriot.

posted by hoppy

I come from a military minded family. I believe ones country and it's military are the same. My country has a military. My sons and kin were part of it. How can you seperate it?

Quite easily. Especially of you don't live in a military dictatorship. The military is a servant of the civilian government not one and the same. Any other way of looking at it and you have the possibility of the military being used against dissidents. Try asking someone from Burma what they think of having the military and the country run by the same people.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:52 am

fuzzy butt;943926 wrote: You know what .................I can only speak personally about this but all i see is "tit for tat" . And that is so sad. It's so destructive. And if you advocate this...God help you . On both sides.

yOu see if an American soldier dropped at my door wounded i would help him . but in the next half hour an American enemy dropped at my door I'd help him too ............................and i could garentee the first to shoot me for doing this ..............it would be an American. tell me why I should think your patriotism is better than others.?

If you really think an American would be the first to shoot you for helping a wounded enemy, you obviously know nothing about our muslim enemy.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:05 am

fuzzy butt;943907 wrote: Okay then, never ever put down a kamakasi pilot for what he did for his country. He gave his life before he ever even took off from the ground

Never ever put down terrorists for their beliefs. Never put down any enemy you have for attacking you because they are being patriotic towards their government or cause.

And dont' torture them in the name of terrorism because they do this.

Cause they are just being like you .........................patriotic
Blind hate, such as yours, is just as bad as blind loyalty. I'll try again to see if you'll read it this time.

Accountable;943863 wrote: Loyalty and devotion are good things so long as they do not lead to behavior that runs counter to one's personal values. I believe many people think patriotism is blind loyalty. It is not. I also believe that some people have never felt patriotism and so don't understand it. That is sad. It's really cool to be a part of something that is larger than oneself.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:07 am

fuzzy butt;943936 wrote: It delves into too many issues that shouldn't be put on a forum .What issues deserve suppression?

Victoria · Post by **Victoria** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:08 am

RedGlitter;943840 wrote: How do you feel about patriotism for one's country? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Is it cut and dried one or the other or is it a little bit of both?

I credit Spot for this topic as he doesn't care for patriotism. Perhaps there are others here who feel the same way. It is a hot button issue so please let's stay civil. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

It just couldn't stay civil could it.

Thats why I'm kind of against, I don't like all that in your face flag waving bragging macho stuff.

I have changed my nationality so how do I fit in?

Well. I am proud of England of its richness of language. English never fails to move me in song or poem it has a flow and depth all its own. The rolling English countryside is magnificent and its history is inspirational.

I am proud of The Netherlands the openness of the people their pride in the house of Orange their craziness on Konningendag when people paint their houses cars and selves orange, their childish sense of humor and fun.

But I wont wave a flag or walk in parades that celebrate killing other human beings thank you because that goes against what I really am. Me underneath the colour of a passport or flag me, a human being. Just like all of you.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:11 am

:yh_flag

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:27 am

To put it simply, for me it boils down to loyalty. My family don't turn their back on a family member who goes astray. We help them any way we can. If my country goes astray, I won't turn my back on it. I'll do what my country asks and remember the things my country did/does for me. I'm NOT a fair weather citizen.:yh_flag

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:11 am

fuzzy butt;943931 wrote: i have burmese in my family dont' even think you know about it !!!!! It's not as simple as activists like to think . they were British once..........why arent they now?

hUh? tell me ? open a can of worms there.

Mate dont go there.

Christ dont even go there my good man .

Don't go where? Burma is ruled by a military junta. It's a fairly safe bet that the burmese people don't-to paraphrase hoppy- see ones country and it's military are the same. whose comment I was replying to. Mind you I don't claim to be an expert on Burma but I think you read more in to my comment than was intended. I have british in my family and probably a good few soldiers of the empire as well in my family tree so by your criteria I am probably as well qualified as anyone else to talk about it. Not that I intend to since it's not relevant here. Pick another country ruled by the military as an example if you prefer. Burma was simply the first that came to mind.

Incidentally I do know why they aren't british any more just as i know how they ended up part of the british empire in the first place. Once upon a time opposing the use of force to impose british rule was deemed terribly unpatriotic.

posted by hoppy

To put it simply, for me it boils down to loyalty. My family don't turn their back on a family member who goes astray. We help them any way we can. If my country goes astray, I won't turn my back on it. I'll do what my country asks and remember the things my country did/does for me. I'm NOT a fair weather citizen.

So if you thought your country was in the wrong what would you do? Be a blind patriot or stand up for what you thought was right? Personally I think they are also patriots that speak out even if it's unpopular

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:24 am

gmc;944002 wrote: Don't go where? Burma is ruled by a military junta. It's a fairly safe bet that the burmese people don't-to paraphrase hoppy- see whose comment I was replying to. Mind you I don't claim to be an expert on Burma but I think you read more in to my comment than was intended. Pick another country ruled by the military as an example if you prefer. Burma was the first that came to mind.

Incidentally I know why they aren't british any more just as i know how they ended up part of the british empire in the first place.

posted by hoppy

So if you thought your country was in the wrong what would you do? Be a blind patriot or stand up for what you thought was right?

I'd stand by my country and try to make changes at each election. So, if you are asking, if my country wanted me to fight in a war I thought was unjust, would I fight, demonstrate or run to another country? Who am I to judge a war unjust? Do I have all the info govt. has? Like I said, I'm NOT a fair weather citizen.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:58 am

grecianurn;943949 wrote: For me patriotism is a simple emotional thing (bit like me really!) - like love for and loyalty to your family, despite things happening which make you feel angry, sad, worried. It doesn't mean, to me, blind loyalty/fanaticism.

hoppy;943956 wrote: To put it simply, for me it boils down to loyalty. My family don't turn their back on a family member who goes astray. We help them any way we can. If my country goes astray, I won't turn my back on it. I'll do what my country asks and remember the things my country did/does for me. I'm NOT a fair weather citizen.:yh_flag
That's it. Simple.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:01 am

No I don't think Patriotism is bad. And I really hate the rash generalizations that are made in these threads. Just because a country does one thing that is seen as bad, doesn't make the whole country and it's people bad.

shelbell · Post by **shelbell** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:56 am

I see myself as a patriot. I wouldn't want to live in any other country. I don't always agree with what my nation is doing, but the freedoms we get are wonderful. We have gone after the terrorists, but if we hadn't then we surely would have had more attacks on innocent civilians. If they strap bombs to themselves and kill their own people, then surely we would face many more attacks. Our government has thwarted off many attacks since 9/11 and I am thankful for that. We don't always do the right thing, but then again, who does? God bless the USA!

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:53 am

hoppy;944026 wrote: I'd stand by my country and try to make changes at each election. So, if you are asking, if my country wanted me to fight in a war I thought was unjust, would I fight, demonstrate or run to another country? Who am I to judge a war unjust? Do I have all the info govt. has? Like I said, I'm NOT a fair weather citizen.

You are a citizen in a free country that gives you the right to question why you are going to war. Especially if you are one of the ones expected to do the actual fighting. If you don't have the right to question and have a say what is done in your name then why are you fighting?

posted by jester

Yes they were, (speaking of the japanese) they just fought on the wrong side of patriotism. I admire bravery, it borders on stupidity on occasion, but I do admire bravery. Those men fought agasint military targets, not civilians, at least in the example you gave.

They weren't on the wrong side. From their point of view they were patriots fighting for their country just as the americans were and the germans and the poles and the russians and the british. The japanese were prepared to fight to the death for their country if they were stupid then so were all the allied soldiers that gave their lives doing the same thing. It was blind unquestioning patriotism that led to ww1, when you look back the reasons for it seem so silly, ww2 was in many ways a second chapter. Hopefully people have learned not just to follow and truist their leaders just because they happen to be the leaders.

Those men fought agasint military targets

so when allied bombers deliberately started firestorms to kill and terrorise civilians in German and japanese cities are you suggesting they were cowards for attacking civilians? Or is it only cowardice when the germans did the same to london or the japanese to the chinese?

American and british bombers flattened dresden in ww2 was that a legitimate act of war or a legitimate act of war and were the bomber pilots cowards for targeting civilians? On the face of it that seems to be what you are suggesting though I don't actually think you are.

War is nasty and in total war especially morality goes out the window. When a politician calls on patriots to support a call to war a good patriot is, I would suggest, cynical rather than just accepting what they are told. You can't criticise germans or japanese or anyone else for blind patriotism if you are prepared to do the same yourself.

Nothing wrong with patriotism but it shouldn't be a surprise that other nations are equally patriotic about their own countries and ready to fight if they have to.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:08 am

gmc;944873 wrote: Nothing wrong with patriotism but it shouldn't be a surprise that other nations are equally patriotic about their own countries and ready to fight if they have to.
Agreed. It's sad that the word has been given such a negative connotation over there.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:31 am

Jester;945105 wrote: Yeah, yer talking major war for survival at the point at which your bringin your examples, things change. I still maintain there was a way to do it more justly. not sure what it woudl have been but there had to be a way. But then again thats war as you said.

The losing side is the wrong side GM, hopefully we will never be on the wrong side.

Is it true patriotism at the point your talking about or a will of survival?

ww2 was all out total war for survival. At least it was from our point of view. There is little doubt that hitler would have used nuclear weapons if he had them-and he came pretty close. The reality in the 21st century is that we have even more means of destruction than we did then.

War is war-a decision to resolve things by armed conflict. It should only be a last resort and the object should be to defeat your enemy, completely and utterly if you have to. There is no such thing as a limited war or a just war and politicians that argue that a "limited" war or a short sharp war for a just cause is justified is an idiot and they're dangerous if people believe them. It will always come back and bite you. long term you have to sit down with your enemies to make peace. usually it is politicians that don't have to do the fighting that think it a good idea and funnily enough the motives at bottom are often economic whatever the actual rhetoric used to justify it. I don't know any soldiers that actually want to go to war, especially if they have been under fire. It was patriotism that led to ww1 and ww2. In it's more extreme form patriotism becomes fascism. True patriots don't just follow the herd because it's the thing to do.

Is it true patriotism at the point your talking about or a will of survival

There are patriots on all sides of a war. The Japanese pilots at pearl harbour were fighting for their country every bit as much as the americans did.

Look at what has just started in georgia, now you have russian patriots fighting georgian ones.

Define what true patriotism is and you will probably find every nation on the planet is filled with patriots when it really comes right down to it.

from the oxford english dictionary

noun a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it.

No offence but I get the impression that americans think they are the only patriotic people on the planet.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:14 pm

Like everything in life: moderation.

Patriotism is a good thing, look at the Olympics where athletes can proudly represent their countries and compete in the spirit of sport.

But when patriotism leads to imperialism, or the closing of minds it all goes too far.

It can too easily become an ‘us’ and ‘them’ this situation. Further more patriotism can be paralyzing when it comes to moving forward. Often change or new ideas are suppressed because of flag waving patriots who use loyalty as an excuse to keep everything as it is and anything that is considered different is considered ‘unpatriotic’ and crushed.

History is full of empires, full of patriotism and greatness, collapsing because of unwillingness to grow with change.

Having said that, I am proud of my Canadian & Irish heritage and would consider myself ‘patriotic’ but again, it is a matter of degree.

hoxtonchris · Post by **hoxtonchris** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:46 pm

we brits are a classic example of a patriotic race who digs at their own country,we in england go round constantly bemoaning the state of the country,its gone to the dogs,wish we lived in the sun,,blah blah blah,,,,but god help any non resident who slags it off!then in sport we love us!but come monday morning its raining,and the prices have gone up and its a case of "soddin country" wish i could emigrate":-5

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:36 am

Jester;946895 wrote: None taken...

I think we're fairly clea ron patriotism, its fairly universal, it just depedns on who's side your on and what perspective your fighting from that determines justification or not.

I can tell you for a fact that 'we' are always right, no matter who 'we' is.

The russians will make short order of the georgians, it wont be a protrected fight, but as I said on the other thread, its up to the EU as to how they respond to russia, you dont need US assistance... Its your problem. Its in your backyard!

It is in our backyard, but it is not our problem. It is more of a civil war than anything else. As long as they keep it between themselvs.

George Orwell in the book 1984 said that to unite the people always have a common enemy. Extreme patriotism allows for common enemies, because people will follow the flag without question. Even when who the enemy is keep changing.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:03 am

hoxtonchris;946569 wrote: we brits are a classic example of a patriotic race who digs at their own country,we in england go round constantly bemoaning the state of the country,its gone to the dogs,wish we lived in the sun,,blah blah blah,,,,but god help any non resident who slags it off!then in sport we love us!but come monday morning its raining,and the prices have gone up and its a case of "soddin country" wish i could emigrate":-5

If I was in England I would go go around bemoaning my fate as well:sneaky:

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:47 am

There is nothing wrong with patriotism until it becomes fanaticism

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:45 am

Lon;947468 wrote: There is nothing wrong with patriotism until it becomes fanaticism

I like this answer! Concise and accurate.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:16 am

Jester;946895 wrote: None taken...

I think we're fairly clea ron patriotism, its fairly universal, it just depedns on who's side your on and what perspective your fighting from that determines justification or not.

I can tell you for a fact that 'we' are always right, no matter who 'we' is.

The russians will make short order of the georgians, it wont be a protrected fight, but as I said on the other thread, its up to the EU as to how they respond to russia, you dont need US assistance... Its your problem. Its in your backyard!

No we really don't need US assistance. This could so easily turn in to wide scale warfare the last thing that would help is grandstanding about it. What's happening in eastern europe is in some ways all the ethnic, racial, nationalistic and religious conflicts and tensions that would have been fought out were stifled under the russian and austro hungarian empires and later just the russian/communist empire are still there and simmering away ready to be stirred up. I Reckon Russia will do enough to make the point and call a halt. The break up of the old cccp has been remarkably peaceful all things considered. I would agree with mikeinie I want them to keep it to themselves. East europeans are like eberyone else, they just want to live in peace and get on with their lives.

Haven't been able to check the accuracy of this

An Israeli writer named Dan Ben Amots once said that this scene in the movie explains the rise of Nazism more than any essay or book he's encountered.

But I think it is a good point. take out the uniforms and replace it with any ism (racism, fascism, naziism, patriotism, nationalism, white supremacy black supremacy, muslim/ christian supremacy)

Patriotism is neither good nor bad but it is open to abuse if ever people follow blindly without question.

Actually somebody did replace it. I have been distracted from what I should be doing for long enough but it's surprising what is on you tube. I make no comment but this should probably offend quite a few of you. I don't mean it that way but rather as thought provoking.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:23 am

You're right, it was offensive. Exactly what thoughts was it supposed to provoke?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:25 am

Accountable;948112 wrote: You're right, it was offensive. Exactly what thoughts was it supposed to provoke?

None in particular maybe just to illustrate Just how the same patriotic emotions can be used to get very different reactions. take it out of context and the sentiments expressed would have appeal to any nationalist movement or racist movement, it's the context and which side you are on that makes it offensive or not, or even funny.

This for instance was really funny at the time-and still is come to that. Maybe you have to be british to appreciate the humour-or recognise the politicians.