What do you think of T Boone Pickens' Plan?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:14 am

I've read his bio. This is not standard stuff. I don't believe the guy has turned over a new leaf. This is a business venture, pure and simple. But is it a business venture good for America? What do you think?

http://www.pickensplan.com/

ps: When you click on his bio, read the "political interests and contributions" section.

Snidely Whiplash · Post by **Snidely Whiplash** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:19 am

If I get out of his plan what he means, he's saying "do everything".....

Drill, solar, wind power, coal, nuclear, etc....

That is the true solution to the energy problems we face.... Get mongo energy from our own country right now and STOP sending our money to nutjob middle eastern countries that hate us, start drilling offshore and on land, espesh ANWAR which is a perfect and huge energy source and void of wildlife unlike the enviro-nuts would have you believe, and let the techies and scientists develope the next generation of electric, wind, natural gas, hydrogen and solar power as we keep going on what our own country can easily provide us for as long as it takes to perfect the next generation of fuels and energy sources....... THAT IS THE ANSWER...!!!

Don't listen to the lib's and the enviro-wacko's, unless you want to say bye-bye to your life styles and way of life, they want you all to be living in mud huts and walking to work in twine scandels...........

We need MORE OIL, WE NEED IT NOW, and we need to STOP these politicians and environmental activists from allowing our society and lives to MOVE FORWARD, INSTEAD OF BACKWARDS..! WHICH IS WHAT OBAMA, PALOSI and REED AND THE OTHER LIB"S and ENVIRO-WACKO'S WANT FOR THIS COUNTRY..!!!!

I don't want that for me and my family and friends...... I think T. Boone Pickens is right on with his ideas..... It beats a tire inflation guage hands down, and is a real answer...........

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:31 am

Snidely Whiplash;948325 wrote: If I get out of his plan what he means, he's saying "do everything".....

Drill, solar, wind power, coal, nuclear, etc....

That is the true solution to the energy problems we face.... Get mongo energy from our own country right now and STOP sending our money to nutjob middle eastern countries that hate us, start drilling offshore and on land, espesh ANWAR which is a perfect and huge energy source and void of wildlife unlike the enviro-nuts would have you believe, and let the techies and scientists develope the next generation of electric, wind, natural gas, hydrogen and solar power as we keep going on what our own country can easily provide us for as long as it takes to perfect the next generation of fuels and energy sources....... THAT IS THE ANSWER...!!!

Don't listen to the lib's and the enviro-wacko's, unless you want to say bye-bye to your life styles and way of life, they want you all to be living in mud huts and walking to work in twine scandels...........

We need MORE OIL, WE NEED IT NOW, and we need to STOP these politicians and environmental activists from allowing our society and lives to MOVE FORWARD, INSTEAD OF BACKWARDS..! WHICH IS WHAT OBAMA, PALOSI and REED AND THE OTHER LIB"S and ENVIRO-WACKO'S WANT FOR THIS COUNTRY..!!!!

I don't want that for me and my family and friends...... I think T. Boone Pickens is right on with his ideas..... It beats a tire inflation guage hands down, and is a real answer...........

:)

You need to read/listen to his plan. It's about 8 minutes into his Senate testimony.

Can't we just produce more oil?

World oil production peaked in 2005. Despite growing demand and an unprecedented increase in prices, oil production has fallen over the last three years. Oil is getting more expensive to produce, harder to find and there just isn't enough of it to keep up with demand.

The simple truth is that cheap and easy oil is gone.

He's saying invest in wind now, to produce the electricity currently produced by natural gas, then use the freed up natural gas for transportation fuel, replacing gasoline demand, giving us time to develop better technology for transportation.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:35 am

He asks for a PTC, which I think is a Production Tax Credit. Now, as Quinn noted back in May, Pickens has already sunk a small fortune into wind technology. He's clearly looking for corporate welfare to boost his investment. My question is: is it worth it to the USA?

Snidely Whiplash · Post by **Snidely Whiplash** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:15 pm

Accountable;948448 wrote: You need to read/listen to his plan. It's about 8 minutes into his Senate testimony.

Can't we just produce more oil?

The simple truth is that cheap and easy oil is gone.

He's saying invest in wind now, to produce the electricity currently produced by natural gas, then use the freed up natural gas for transportation fuel, replacing gasoline demand, giving us time to develop better technology for transportation.

I like wind...... Wind is good..... I like solar too.... We spent 6 years travelling in an RV full time, with solar cells on the roof, and inverters and batteries to make us self sufficient.... So I know something about this.... My first hand experiences trying to live off the grid, and making our own energy from thousands and thousands of dollars in solar panels and electronics just to power a measly 32 ft. travel trailer were dismal at best.... Yes it worked most of the time, but the power only lasted a short time, it wasn't enough to run an A/C, and it initially cost a ton of money that we never got back in savings, no matter how hard we tried..... That is the state of some of these new renewable energy sources right now.... It will take many years for them to be worth while....

Natural gas is the answer to the gasoline dilema, it's cheap, and it burns clean... I want to get a conversion for our car, but can't find one.... And theres NO natural gas infistructure here, none at all....? It would take years to change, and as childishly stupid our senate and house is acting, acomplishing virtualy nothing and scoring a world record 9%aproval rating with us all, that idea seems distant at best.......... :-3The environmentalists won't go for it though, and since they have the dem's in they're pocket in Washington, it will never happen till things change...

Cheap and easy oil isn't gone....????? Our entire society runs on oil.... Every farm that supplies food to your grocery store runs almost entirely on oil, and that is NOT going to change, there isn't that technology yet, and won't be for quite a few years....

So if we all want food in our shops and stores, and clothes to wear, and cars and tables and chairs and toasters and electronics and computers that are made from oil products, and transported by oil to where you live, and if you want a house that has heat and cooling and electricity when you flip a switch, YOU BETTER ALL GET TOGETHER AND FIND WAYS TO GET OIL, AND KEEP IT COMING AT A REASONABLE COST, or we'll all be taking a thousand year step back in our way of living.....

I don't think many people can even comprehend how much in our lives comes from oil.... Look around your houses, travel anywhere, buy anything, it all is made possible from oil..... Without oil our societies die, and we all starve and die......

Oil is an intricate and intimate part of all of our daily lives, from morning to dusk and every second in between, and WHATEVER IT TAKES, WE HAVE TO KEEP IT COMING, or it's the end for us.... There is NO alternative for years in the future... Yes there will be alternatives in time, but not now, not in 5 years, nor 10, nor 20....

It's crucial that we secure an oil supply right now..!!! Our very lives depend on it...!

:)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:12 am

Snidely Whiplash;949369 wrote: I like wind...... Wind is good..... I like solar too.... We spent 6 years travelling in an RV full time, with solar cells on the roof, and inverters and batteries to make us self sufficient.... So I know something about this.... My first hand experiences trying to live off the grid, and making our own energy from thousands and thousands of dollars in solar panels and electronics just to power a measly 32 ft. travel trailer were dismal at best.... Yes it worked most of the time, but the power only lasted a short time, it wasn't enough to run an A/C, and it initially cost a ton of money that we never got back in savings, no matter how hard we tried..... That is the state of some of these new renewable energy sources right now.... It will take many years for them to be worth while.... Startup is too expensive so it kills demand. Demand's not going to increase until it becomes cheap enough. Prices won't come down without newer technology and volume sales, both of which depend on high demand.Somebody's going to have to speculate, and it doesn't have to be us. Keep your eye on Germany for solar.

Snidely Whiplash wrote: Natural gas is the answer to the gasoline dilema, it's cheap, and it burns clean... I want to get a conversion for our car, but can't find one.... And theres NO natural gas infistructure here, none at all....? It would take years to change, and as childishly stupid our senate and house is acting, acomplishing virtualy nothing and scoring a world record 9%aproval rating with us all, that idea seems distant at best.......... :-3The environmentalists won't go for it though, and since they have the dem's in they're pocket in Washington, it will never happen till things change...We used natural gas domestically in the Air Force. Filling up made a God-awful noise (shoving a gas into a pressurized tank, I guess) and it wasn't great on the highway. In-town driving was fine, though.

Snidely Whiplash wrote: Cheap and easy oil isn't gone....????? Our entire society runs on oil.... Every farm that supplies food to your grocery store runs almost entirely on oil, and that is NOT going to change, there isn't that technology yet, and won't be for quite a few years.... That's part of what I want to examine about this. Ol' T Boone is giving a sales pitch, which means shading the truth to paint the picture he wants us to see. How much of what he's saying is real and how much is smoke he's blowing up our collective skirt?

Snidely Whiplash wrote: So if we all want food in our shops and stores, and clothes to wear, and cars and tables and chairs and toasters and electronics and computers that are made from oil products, and transported by oil to where you live, and if you want a house that has heat and cooling and electricity when you flip a switch, YOU BETTER ALL GET TOGETHER AND FIND WAYS TO GET OIL, AND KEEP IT COMING AT A REASONABLE COST, or we'll all be taking a thousand year step back in our way of living.....

I don't think many people can even comprehend how much in our lives comes from oil.... Look around your houses, travel anywhere, buy anything, it all is made possible from oil..... Without oil our societies die, and we all starve and die......

Oil is an intricate and intimate part of all of our daily lives, from morning to dusk and every second in between, and WHATEVER IT TAKES, WE HAVE TO KEEP IT COMING, or it's the end for us.... There is NO alternative for years in the future... Yes there will be alternatives in time, but not now, not in 5 years, nor 10, nor 20....

It's crucial that we secure an oil supply right now..!!! Our very lives depend on it...!

:)Imagine how much cheaper all that stuff would be if we could replace gasoline. Is the Pickens plan the right first step? I'm intrigued, but not convinced.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:29 am

He was on Jim Lehrer last night. Here's the 9 minute segment.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/video/modul ... 2008&seg=4

I couldn't find a transcript.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:44 am

Snidely Whiplash;948325 wrote:

We need MORE OIL, WE NEED IT NOW, and we need to STOP these politicians and environmental activists from allowing our society and lives to MOVE FORWARD, INSTEAD OF BACKWARDS..! WHICH IS WHAT OBAMA, PALOSI and REED AND THE OTHER LIB"S and ENVIRO-WACKO'S WANT FOR THIS COUNTRY..!!!!

Ditto head

Youre such an extremist. Take the family to the zoo for a day and try to get your blood pressure down.

Nothing is happening to the oil, market strategists and speculators drive the price up and down.

Even if we do drill its a decade before there are results. So take a Xanax and relax.

More Rush phrases I see. :rolleyes:

You might as well get used to the idea of Obamamama in the White house, besides, it'll give you a reason to slam your fist down on the dinner table and scare the kids. Just dont choke on a chop bone.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:22 am

The biggest problem is consumption... a lot of the heaters, equipment, cars, light bulbs, etc are huge energy hogs. I'd estimate that 80% of consumption can be cut. This means fundamentally rethinking how we do things and upgrading our technology. For example, why install thousands of lights in a building, when sunroofs would provide most light instead? Why not build bicycle lanes so people can ride bikes without fear of being run over.

I don't have a problem with Picken's basic blueprint but it's only part of a solution. He of course is just in it to make money, by monopolizing the next generation of energy sources. He doesn't say much about consumption, because that means he'd sell less.

ETA: nuclear is *not* the way to go, unless we are talking about an experimental fusion plant.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:48 am

yaaarrrgg;950021 wrote: The biggest problem is consumption... a lot of the heaters, equipment, cars, light bulbs, etc are huge energy hogs. I'd estimate that 80% of consumption can be cut. This means fundamentally rethinking how we do things and upgrading our technology. For example, why install thousands of lights in a building, when sunroofs would provide most light instead? Why not build bicycle lanes so people can ride bikes without fear of being run over.

I don't have a problem with Picken's basic blueprint but it's only part of a solution. He of course is just in it to make money, by monopolizing the next generation of energy sources. He doesn't say much about consumption, because that means he'd sell less.

I think you're wildly optimistic putting avoidable waste at 80%. Remember that a large proportion of oil consumption is industrial - not only in power but as raw material.

Yes, we can cut down on lighting but light takes very little power.

Yes, we can build more bicycle lanes and after repaying the power costs of doing the work we might reduce short commuting (to do it to any significant extent we'd need far more than current style bike lanes) but to get anywhere near 80% we need to move all private travel onto public transport and all goods onto rail.

You also need to look at reducing heat loss and, more importantly, reuse of waste heat. Heating is power intensive so allowing heat to escape or, even worse, cooling an overhot building and throwing the heat away is almost criminal but, using current techynology, it still won't get you an 80% reduction in consumption.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:09 am

Bryn Mawr;950081 wrote: I think you're wildly optimistic putting avoidable waste at 80%. Remember that a large proportion of oil consumption is industrial - not only in power but as raw material.

Yes, we can cut down on lighting but light takes very little power.

Yes, we can build more bicycle lanes and after repaying the power costs of doing the work we might reduce short commuting (to do it to any significant extent we'd need far more than current style bike lanes) but to get anywhere near 80% we need to move all private travel onto public transport and all goods onto rail.

You also need to look at reducing heat loss and, more importantly, reuse of waste heat. Heating is power intensive so allowing heat to escape or, even worse, cooling an overhot building and throwing the heat away is almost criminal but, using current techynology, it still won't get you an 80% reduction in consumption.

That's a good point. I mean too, we need to look at our lifestyles ... along with those industries and ask why we are sustaining them. Every time there is an advance in technology, it seems like the concept of necessity increases as well, just to fill the gap. I look at a diet coke and wonder how we arrived at a place, where we process a chunk of metal, paint it, constantly refrigerate it, just so that people can drink something that's for all intents and purposes nutritionally void (and probably worse for someone than water). How many calories went into making that? Americans eat twice as much, then take twice as many drugs to undo it.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:29 am

yaaarrrgg;950130 wrote: That's a good point. I mean too, we need to look at our lifestyles ... along with those industries and ask why we are sustaining them. Every time there is an advance in technology, it seems like the concept of necessity increases as well, just to fill the gap. I look at a diet coke and wonder how we arrived at a place, where we process a chunk of metal, paint it, constantly refrigerate it, just so that people can drink something that's for all intents and purposes nutritionally void (and probably worse for someone than water). How many calories went into making that? Americans eat twice as much, then take twice as many drugs to undo it.

I'd certainly agree that our throwaway society needs to change - starting with single use containers and built in obsolescence.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:01 pm

Nomad;949662 wrote: Even if we do drill its a decade before there are results. Decades come and go awfully fast. Had we drilled a decade ago would we be in the same fix we seem to be in now?

Anyway, what do you think of T Boone's plan?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:50 am

A couple of minor detatails have come to light. Yes, ol' T Boone is an oil baron, but he also founded Clean Energy Fuels Corp. among other natural gas companies.

Clean Energy is the largest provider of vehicular natural gas (CNG and LNG) in North America with a broad customer base in the refuse, transit, shuttle, taxi, intrastate and interstate trucking, airport and municipal fleet markets with tens of thousands of vehicles fueling at strategic locations in the United States and Canada.

How much does he believe in wind, and how much is this a ploy to get more business for his gas company?

I also found out from a conservative hack columnist that Nancy Pelosi made between 100K and 250K in income from Clean Energy Fuels Corp. Of course I'm not taking the columnist's word for it, so I found it myself. Click here and find it on page 7.

The company's stock symbol is CLNE and is down for the year.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:57 am

Question on the plan. To me he ignores demand. Pickens claims that promoting wind investment will free up natural gas to replace foreign oil for transportation fuel. But won't that simply increase supply?

Increasing supply lowers prices, and we all know Americans will simply buy bigger more powerful cars if fuel is cheaper. Demand will simply increase to meet supply, won't it?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:12 am

Accountable;950666 wrote: Decades come and go awfully fast. Had we drilled a decade ago would we be in the same fix we seem to be in now?

Anyway, what do you think of T Boone's plan?

I like it. Im all for it. Here in Minnesota you can see quite a few wind turbines popping up. On farms even in cities and towns.

We should be forging ahead minus all the beaurocracy.

Maple Grove, Mn.

Attached files

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:29 am

Nomad;951128 wrote: I like it. Im all for it. Here in Minnesota you can see quite a few wind turbines popping up. On farms even in cities and towns.

We should be forging ahead minus all the beaurocracy.

Maple Grove, Mn.
I wonder if they will use wind power on the new hybrids? Couldn't they use ram/air, cowl induction etc. to force air into some kind of turbine that charges the batteries in the cars as you drive?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:34 am

I like the idea of wind. I like the idea of independence from OPEC. I like the idea of natural gas, especially if we have as much as Pickens says we do.

I can't help but think he's using wind as a smoke-screen to increase demand for natural gas, which is where he has more invested. I base it on his own claim that we have lots and lots of natural gas, enough to cover the transition to wind for electricity and the transition from gasoline to CNG (compressed natural gas). If we have so much, why isn't he just calling for a change to CNG for transportation? My guess is that he has studies that show less interest in that tack than the wind tack.

Retro-fit kits are available to change your vehicle to CNG

http://knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov/cops/ital ... 006%5D.pdf

Availability of the fuel itself might be a problem, depending on your location. I'd be interested to know if CNG is cheaper to use than gasoline, so I could calculate how long it would take for the retrofit to pay for itself.

Snidely Whiplash · Post by **Snidely Whiplash** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:48 pm

Nomad;949662 wrote:

More Rush phrases I see.

G'day amigo........ It looks like "YOU" listen to Rush more than I do, because I don't know what part of my reply you're refering to..?? Maybe you also have the transcripts from Rush's radio shows and will copy and paste the parts that I've reminded you of...? I'd enjoy reading them.... Thanks...

Nomad;949662 wrote:

Nothing is happening to the oil, market strategists and speculators drive the price up and down.

Oh thats a great reply with all that we little people are struggling through right now.... "Nothing is happening with oil"... Have you been to the pump lately, or do you just go to the gas station to make sure your bicycle tires are properly inflated, while sipping your cup of Obama Kool-Aid....

Nomad;949662 wrote:

You might as well get used to the idea of Obamamama in the White house, besides, it'll give you a reason to slam your fist down on the dinner table and scare the kids. Just dont choke on a chop bone.

You are definately proof that the liberals are the imature, childish party that blindly follows anyone who the lib media and far left tells you to follow and swoon over drooling on yourself... Or is it more what Chris Mathews the TV host said a while back, that "I feel like somethings crawling up my leg when I hear Obama speak"...? Maybe you should check you trousers...? :wah::wah:

Nomad;949662 wrote:

Even if we do drill its a decade before there are results. So take a Xanax and relax.

Who told you that..? :-3 Nancy Pelosi....??? :-2 Every oil worker that is there on a rig will tell you over and over that it will be as little as 6 months if the infastructure is already there, and from 1-5 years if we have to do it from scratch.... Try to use the sense God gave you, if it took 10 years to PUT A MAN ON THE MOON AND BRING HIM BACK SAFELY, does your common sense tell you that we can't drill an oil well and get oil from it in that same time..??? The TEN YEARS you are refering to is the time it takes to jump through all the hoops, and win all the law suits and protests to stop them made by the liberal democrats and the enviro-wackos..... Drilling for oil is easy as drilling for water or anything else, it takes a matter of months to do, and how ever long it takes to pave a roadsway or install a pipe to a storage source.... The years and years you are talking about is due to YOUR lib bro's who only want to throw a wrench into the works to milk more money out of everyone involved, or for thier own political aspirations....

Ahhhhhhhh... Big sigh..... :yh_brokeh

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:45 pm

Jester;951933 wrote: I looked into CNG for the rigs in the biz... The fuel is sound and it is nearly zero emission, but, its every bit as expensive as gas/disiel and it doesnt fluctate for the summer, yet its pricey right through the winter as well, (it does rise some in the winter), but not much.

The show stopper to CNG for me was its limited availability in terms of 24 hour fill-ups... you dont just drive up and stick the nozzle in and hit the type of octane... a certified technician needs to walk out and fill you up, its a process, it takes three times the length of time as a gas fill up and its labor intensive which means its gonna cost more than what it does now when stations start in on being fillup master again...

If I had a larger fleet and I had a tank parked at my shop for daily top offs, and a source in the field to fill on a regialr basis it might be worth it, but barely.

I want diesel fuel for all commercial vehicles that touch an interstate. I want electric cars for all inner city drivers. I want CNG for city/state public transportation. I want all power companies to find non fossil fuel resorces (wind, solar, geothermal, river turbine, etc) and to have 20% of thier power come from alternative ways. Then I want the government to charge private inductry to redraw the power grid for nuclear power and build two or three a year till we've powered ourselves well beyond demand.

And if so much as one EPA or private environmental lawsuit is filed I swear I want open shotgun season on any and all environmentalists.

And I dont care if Tboone want the contract.
I filled up with CNG a thousand times in the Air Force, but there was that safety step of grounding, and making sure connections were tight before proceeding. I could see the typical driver freaking out about anything not plug & play.