Scrat;1051436 wrote: This a a video of a forum that goes into the why of the current monetary crisis and the medias role in it.
If you wonder why it came about so suddenly, why peoples minds seemed to shift so suddenly this may answer some of your questions. It'S LONG but I watched it all but didn't understand everything. I do agree with a lot of it. We did this to ourselves, it's human nature to ignore the 1000 lb safe hovering over your head.
The rope on that safe may break no matter how positive you think. That's called reality.
The Real News Network - Media Talk: Predicting the crash
Haven't watched it all but I will. The thing that makes me angry is that the smart bastards that caused this are still there worrying about their bonuses.
This did not happen out the blue-even a cursory trawl on the internet will bring up dozens of articles about what was going to happen. We have regulators that deferred to so called experts because they couldn't understand what they were being told rather than reigning because they were incompetent or having the sense to trust their instincts that something was not right.
The safe hanging over your head.
The safe hanging over your head.
It is very annoying that the people who took the risks and did the deals will walk away inscathed.
As for risk taking thats human nature like living on a major earthquake fault line or in hurricane alley, in the shadow of a vulcano or as I do below sea level.. We take the risk we act on information supplied and have to hope that information is sound.
The point with this financial crisis is that many many people incl governments knew the risks were too high and that should it go bad the fall out could be catastrophic and yet they chose to turn a blind eye knowing that should it turn bad the only real losers would be the little man.
As for risk taking thats human nature like living on a major earthquake fault line or in hurricane alley, in the shadow of a vulcano or as I do below sea level.. We take the risk we act on information supplied and have to hope that information is sound.
The point with this financial crisis is that many many people incl governments knew the risks were too high and that should it go bad the fall out could be catastrophic and yet they chose to turn a blind eye knowing that should it turn bad the only real losers would be the little man.
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Oscar Namechange
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The safe hanging over your head.
Victoria;1051515 wrote: It is very annoying that the people who took the risks and did the deals will walk away inscathed.
.
Our Prime Minister, Gordon Brown said a few weeks ago when refering to the bank chief's that he sacked.. 'They will pay'. He also said he will use legal action if he has to. I hope this is a promise to the British people that he will follow through. I can't wait to see their sorry arsses in the dock. :wah:
.
Our Prime Minister, Gordon Brown said a few weeks ago when refering to the bank chief's that he sacked.. 'They will pay'. He also said he will use legal action if he has to. I hope this is a promise to the British people that he will follow through. I can't wait to see their sorry arsses in the dock. :wah:
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The safe hanging over your head.
Don't hold your breath Oscar. I'm not saying it wont ever happen but way back in the 1980's when the last crash happened there was a bank in the City of London where there was a lot of insider dealing and brown envelopes (bribes) being passed around.
The fraud squad got called in and OH had to give a statement of what he had seen even though he was only there refitting the airco.
The big bosses at this bank were often found at Checkers of a weekend and had a hot-line to Mrs T's office.
Surprise surprise... no-one ever went to jail the case just kinda melted away..
The fraud squad got called in and OH had to give a statement of what he had seen even though he was only there refitting the airco.
The big bosses at this bank were often found at Checkers of a weekend and had a hot-line to Mrs T's office.
Surprise surprise... no-one ever went to jail the case just kinda melted away..
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The safe hanging over your head.
Victoria;1051589 wrote: Don't hold your breath Oscar. I'm not saying it wont ever happen but way back in the 1980's when the last crash happened there was a bank in the City of London where there was a lot of insider dealing and brown envelopes (bribes) being passed around.
The fraud squad got called in and OH had to give a statement of what he had seen even though he was only there refitting the airco.
The big bosses at this bank were often found at Checkers of a weekend and had a hot-line to Mrs T's office.
Surprise surprise... no-one ever went to jail the case just kinda melted away..
I agree with what your saying but that was the Thatcher Government back then.
This is a Labour government and Gordon brown has only been in No 10 for a year.
What he has actually done in that year has shown quite remarkable leadership.
His promises to slash fuel, interest rates and tax in the near mini-budget has happened already.
The fraud squad got called in and OH had to give a statement of what he had seen even though he was only there refitting the airco.
The big bosses at this bank were often found at Checkers of a weekend and had a hot-line to Mrs T's office.
Surprise surprise... no-one ever went to jail the case just kinda melted away..
I agree with what your saying but that was the Thatcher Government back then.
This is a Labour government and Gordon brown has only been in No 10 for a year.
What he has actually done in that year has shown quite remarkable leadership.
His promises to slash fuel, interest rates and tax in the near mini-budget has happened already.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The safe hanging over your head.
The video link wouldn't play for some reason, most annoying, I think my internet connection is slow tonight.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The safe hanging over your head.
Galbally;1051983 wrote: The video link wouldn't play for some reason, most annoying, I think my internet connection is slow tonight.
How's things in Ireland with the proposed cut backs on over 70 yr old's health care???
How's things in Ireland with the proposed cut backs on over 70 yr old's health care???
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The safe hanging over your head.
oscar;1051984 wrote: How's things in Ireland with the proposed cut backs on over 70 yr old's health care???
They reversed it, they had to. They also had to roll back on their plans to introduce an income levy of 1 percent on everyone who pays tax, they took the minimum wage people out of that.
They also have to deal with the cuts in school funding, and all of that kinda thing. The population are scared and angry and the government are aware of that now I think. Its going to be a difficult 12 months from now till xmas 09, like over there, and everywhere else, but worrying about it isn't going to stop it.
I think that the economic problems are very serious indeed, and its going to take a very significant changes to the way we organize our economies, countries, and the way we live to deal with the problems.
Saying that, at the same time, we have been living a totally crazy lifestyle for years, in a word: unsustainable, and it hasn't been very good for people, (no matter how many useless material goods they have been able to surround themselves and their children with), as most of what we think of as "a necessity" in modern life is rubbish anwyay.
So if we take this chance to live more realistic lifestyles, and prioritize what is actually important, and what we need, (as opposed to what we "want") it might be the best thing that ever happened.
They reversed it, they had to. They also had to roll back on their plans to introduce an income levy of 1 percent on everyone who pays tax, they took the minimum wage people out of that.
They also have to deal with the cuts in school funding, and all of that kinda thing. The population are scared and angry and the government are aware of that now I think. Its going to be a difficult 12 months from now till xmas 09, like over there, and everywhere else, but worrying about it isn't going to stop it.
I think that the economic problems are very serious indeed, and its going to take a very significant changes to the way we organize our economies, countries, and the way we live to deal with the problems.
Saying that, at the same time, we have been living a totally crazy lifestyle for years, in a word: unsustainable, and it hasn't been very good for people, (no matter how many useless material goods they have been able to surround themselves and their children with), as most of what we think of as "a necessity" in modern life is rubbish anwyay.
So if we take this chance to live more realistic lifestyles, and prioritize what is actually important, and what we need, (as opposed to what we "want") it might be the best thing that ever happened.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The safe hanging over your head.
Galbally;1051996 wrote: They reversed it, they had to. They also had to roll back on their plans to introduce an income levy of 1 percent on everyone who pays tax, they took the minimum wage people out of that.
They also have to deal with the cuts in school funding, and all of that kinda thing. The population are scared and angry and the government are aware of that now I think. Its going to be a difficult 12 months from now till xmas 09, like over there, and everywhere else, but worrying about it isn't going to stop it.
I think that the economic problems are very serious indeed, and its going to take a very significant changes to the way we organize our economies, countries, and the way we live to deal with the problems.
Saying that, at the same time, we have been living a totally crazy lifestyle for years, in a word: unsustainable, and it hasn't been very good for people, (no matter how many useless material goods they have been able to surround themselves and their children with), as most of what we think of as "a necessity" in modern life is rubbish anwyay.
So if we take this chance to live more realistic lifestyles, and prioritize what is actually important, and what we need, (as opposed to what we "want") it might be the best thing that ever happened.
You've got to admit it. Every cynic predicted that Gordon Brown would raise taxes. He is cutting them instead. Every-one is to get £500. Interest rate cuts have been passed on by the banks and fuel is still down. The boy is looking good.
Glad to hear they reversed the health proposal. I could see anarchy there.
They also have to deal with the cuts in school funding, and all of that kinda thing. The population are scared and angry and the government are aware of that now I think. Its going to be a difficult 12 months from now till xmas 09, like over there, and everywhere else, but worrying about it isn't going to stop it.
I think that the economic problems are very serious indeed, and its going to take a very significant changes to the way we organize our economies, countries, and the way we live to deal with the problems.
Saying that, at the same time, we have been living a totally crazy lifestyle for years, in a word: unsustainable, and it hasn't been very good for people, (no matter how many useless material goods they have been able to surround themselves and their children with), as most of what we think of as "a necessity" in modern life is rubbish anwyay.
So if we take this chance to live more realistic lifestyles, and prioritize what is actually important, and what we need, (as opposed to what we "want") it might be the best thing that ever happened.
You've got to admit it. Every cynic predicted that Gordon Brown would raise taxes. He is cutting them instead. Every-one is to get £500. Interest rate cuts have been passed on by the banks and fuel is still down. The boy is looking good.
Glad to hear they reversed the health proposal. I could see anarchy there.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The safe hanging over your head.
The video is 1 hour 28 mins and 22 secs long. It is basically a meeting of journalists to investigate why the credit crunch was not properly foreseen and reported by the media. They hold themselves responsible for not averting the crisis by relevant reporting.
The common view was that journalists were concentrating too hard on the major corporate financial sectors and the wider picture was being ignored as journalists followed the trend. I.e. if the other journalists are focussing on the main market sectors, then we should be as well (we being the papers editors).
One of the panelists pointed out that the financial figures actually showed a normal trend for a healthy economy. But journalists were picking up on minor trends and using them to support their beliefs rather than the facts. An amplification spiral was created among journalists.
Notwithstanding, there was an underlying economic pitfall being created by using debts as a commodity and the financial institutions were able to hide the fact while the journalists were all looking elsewhere.
Interesting facts were raised such as the effect of America moving away from the Breton/Woods system, defaulting on its obligation to pay debts in gold and issuing treasury bills as iou's. Also, the effect of the change in UK law permitting credit creation by banks. Go look if you have the stomach.
The common view was that journalists were concentrating too hard on the major corporate financial sectors and the wider picture was being ignored as journalists followed the trend. I.e. if the other journalists are focussing on the main market sectors, then we should be as well (we being the papers editors).
One of the panelists pointed out that the financial figures actually showed a normal trend for a healthy economy. But journalists were picking up on minor trends and using them to support their beliefs rather than the facts. An amplification spiral was created among journalists.
Notwithstanding, there was an underlying economic pitfall being created by using debts as a commodity and the financial institutions were able to hide the fact while the journalists were all looking elsewhere.
Interesting facts were raised such as the effect of America moving away from the Breton/Woods system, defaulting on its obligation to pay debts in gold and issuing treasury bills as iou's. Also, the effect of the change in UK law permitting credit creation by banks. Go look if you have the stomach.
The safe hanging over your head.
oscar;1052004 wrote: You've got to admit it. Every cynic predicted that Gordon Brown would raise taxes. He is cutting them instead. Every-one is to get £500. Interest rate cuts have been passed on by the banks and fuel is still down. The boy is looking good.
Glad to hear they reversed the health proposal. I could see anarchy there.
I understand why you are lauding Gordon Brown, he has had a good crisis. However, these problems go very deep, and back into decisions made 20 and 30 years ago. I don't think these small measures are going to anywhere near enough to grapple with the real problem; which is that our financial system no longer reflects economic reality and that we have been living in a financially inspired illusion of prosperity; when in fact we have been living on credit for quite a long time, while dismantling much of the basis of our previous economic power.
To be honest, the process that is happening now is only the start of the reality check, and I fear for the stability of our economic and political systems, when the full impact of this crash become evident. Its far far worse (in my opinion) than the late 70s and early 80s period, perhaps even worse than the Crash of 1929, and I am not being melodramtic.
Its a worldwide general systems collapse, and the crash has occured becase essetially the global capital and financial system is rotten and was waitnig to collapse; indeed, all it took was a relatively small oil shock, and a peak in US consumer credit and housing market prices for the whole pyramid to collapse worldwide, (that should indicate how divorced from reality the sytem had become) and the repercussions are going to be very significant for everyone; and particularly us here in the cosseted western world.
So lowering interest rates, allowing sterling to devalue, tax cuts, and some government spending can help to ease the pain in Britain in the short term, and its understandable that the government will wish to do so to protect citizens from as much of the short term turmoil as possible; (and maybe get reelected as a consequence) but it can't undo the basic fact that we have been living far too high on the hog for too long without earning enough in real terms to justify it, now that situation is coming to an end.
We are sitting in overpriced houses on overpriced land, in economies based on shopping and selling houses to each other, in countries that no longer produce much, innovate, or export much to the rest of the world, the UK economy is based on international finance and housing, and both are in deep trouble, manufacturing is now only 14 percent of the economy, how is the UK going to improve its balance of trade and export earnings in the future? thats got to be very worrying.
Glad to hear they reversed the health proposal. I could see anarchy there.
I understand why you are lauding Gordon Brown, he has had a good crisis. However, these problems go very deep, and back into decisions made 20 and 30 years ago. I don't think these small measures are going to anywhere near enough to grapple with the real problem; which is that our financial system no longer reflects economic reality and that we have been living in a financially inspired illusion of prosperity; when in fact we have been living on credit for quite a long time, while dismantling much of the basis of our previous economic power.
To be honest, the process that is happening now is only the start of the reality check, and I fear for the stability of our economic and political systems, when the full impact of this crash become evident. Its far far worse (in my opinion) than the late 70s and early 80s period, perhaps even worse than the Crash of 1929, and I am not being melodramtic.
Its a worldwide general systems collapse, and the crash has occured becase essetially the global capital and financial system is rotten and was waitnig to collapse; indeed, all it took was a relatively small oil shock, and a peak in US consumer credit and housing market prices for the whole pyramid to collapse worldwide, (that should indicate how divorced from reality the sytem had become) and the repercussions are going to be very significant for everyone; and particularly us here in the cosseted western world.
So lowering interest rates, allowing sterling to devalue, tax cuts, and some government spending can help to ease the pain in Britain in the short term, and its understandable that the government will wish to do so to protect citizens from as much of the short term turmoil as possible; (and maybe get reelected as a consequence) but it can't undo the basic fact that we have been living far too high on the hog for too long without earning enough in real terms to justify it, now that situation is coming to an end.
We are sitting in overpriced houses on overpriced land, in economies based on shopping and selling houses to each other, in countries that no longer produce much, innovate, or export much to the rest of the world, the UK economy is based on international finance and housing, and both are in deep trouble, manufacturing is now only 14 percent of the economy, how is the UK going to improve its balance of trade and export earnings in the future? thats got to be very worrying.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The safe hanging over your head.
Galbally;1052308 wrote: We are sitting in overpriced houses on overpriced land, in economies based on shopping and selling houses to each other, in countries that no longer produce much, innovate, or export much to the rest of the world, the UK economy is based on international finance and housing, and both are in deep trouble, manufacturing is now only 14 percent of the economy, how is the UK going to improve its balance of trade and export earnings in the future? thats got to be very worrying.
We all need sme fiscal stimulation but that's another thread :wah:
Are you sitting in some over-priced house???
This is something hubby and i were just discussing. A fall in house prices has it's benifits too. It makes housing far more affordable to those young and lower income people who have been forced to pay extortionate rent or beg for a council house simply because they have been out-priced in the property boom.
The only real losers are the greedy gits who buy property to re-condition and sell on at a massively inflated price.
The genuine home buyer buys their property to live in, to raise children in and to grow old in. Those with houses that are bought for a generation of life, need not worry. The housing market has historically dropped and risen. In ten years time, the drop in house prices here, will be bouyant and rising again. If a genuine buyer has every intention of say raising their family in their house, then in time, it will peak again.
The people who are suffering most as house prices fall are the one's who buy cheap purely with the intention of the market rising further, to then sell on for a more extortionate price.
The fall in house prices also has the benifit that it free's up a huge back-log and demand of people needing council accomodation that is so scarce due to the Thatcher regime when any-one regardless of their income, could buy their council house. they promised that more houses would be built to meet the growing generation, but they never were.
If house prices come way down, even people already in council property will be able to buy their own home thus freeing up the much needed council property. Others will be able to affored the lower end of the house prices and this will lift a huge burden of demand on council accomodation.
This in turn saves government investment into more council homes being built enabling them to re-direct those funds into other area's needing re-investment, i.e. Education and Health.
We all need sme fiscal stimulation but that's another thread :wah:
Are you sitting in some over-priced house???
This is something hubby and i were just discussing. A fall in house prices has it's benifits too. It makes housing far more affordable to those young and lower income people who have been forced to pay extortionate rent or beg for a council house simply because they have been out-priced in the property boom.
The only real losers are the greedy gits who buy property to re-condition and sell on at a massively inflated price.
The genuine home buyer buys their property to live in, to raise children in and to grow old in. Those with houses that are bought for a generation of life, need not worry. The housing market has historically dropped and risen. In ten years time, the drop in house prices here, will be bouyant and rising again. If a genuine buyer has every intention of say raising their family in their house, then in time, it will peak again.
The people who are suffering most as house prices fall are the one's who buy cheap purely with the intention of the market rising further, to then sell on for a more extortionate price.
The fall in house prices also has the benifit that it free's up a huge back-log and demand of people needing council accomodation that is so scarce due to the Thatcher regime when any-one regardless of their income, could buy their council house. they promised that more houses would be built to meet the growing generation, but they never were.
If house prices come way down, even people already in council property will be able to buy their own home thus freeing up the much needed council property. Others will be able to affored the lower end of the house prices and this will lift a huge burden of demand on council accomodation.
This in turn saves government investment into more council homes being built enabling them to re-direct those funds into other area's needing re-investment, i.e. Education and Health.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The safe hanging over your head.
oscar;1053280 wrote: We all need sme fiscal stimulation but that's another thread :wah:
Are you sitting in some over-priced house???
This is something hubby and i were just discussing. A fall in house prices has it's benifits too. It makes housing far more affordable to those young and lower income people who have been forced to pay extortionate rent or beg for a council house simply because they have been out-priced in the property boom.
The only real losers are the greedy gits who buy property to re-condition and sell on at a massively inflated price.
The genuine home buyer buys their property to live in, to raise children in and to grow old in. Those with houses that are bought for a generation of life, need not worry. The housing market has historically dropped and risen. In ten years time, the drop in house prices here, will be bouyant and rising again. If a genuine buyer has every intention of say raising their family in their house, then in time, it will peak again.
The people who are suffering most as house prices fall are the one's who buy cheap purely with the intention of the market rising further, to then sell on for a more extortionate price.
The fall in house prices also has the benifit that it free's up a huge back-log and demand of people needing council accomodation that is so scarce due to the Thatcher regime when any-one regardless of their income, could buy their council house. they promised that more houses would be built to meet the growing generation, but they never were.
If house prices come way down, even people already in council property will be able to buy their own home thus freeing up the much needed council property. Others will be able to affored the lower end of the house prices and this will lift a huge burden of demand on council accomodation.
This in turn saves government investment into more council homes being built enabling them to re-direct those funds into other area's needing re-investment, i.e. Education and Health.
:):):)
Are you sitting in some over-priced house???
This is something hubby and i were just discussing. A fall in house prices has it's benifits too. It makes housing far more affordable to those young and lower income people who have been forced to pay extortionate rent or beg for a council house simply because they have been out-priced in the property boom.
The only real losers are the greedy gits who buy property to re-condition and sell on at a massively inflated price.
The genuine home buyer buys their property to live in, to raise children in and to grow old in. Those with houses that are bought for a generation of life, need not worry. The housing market has historically dropped and risen. In ten years time, the drop in house prices here, will be bouyant and rising again. If a genuine buyer has every intention of say raising their family in their house, then in time, it will peak again.
The people who are suffering most as house prices fall are the one's who buy cheap purely with the intention of the market rising further, to then sell on for a more extortionate price.
The fall in house prices also has the benifit that it free's up a huge back-log and demand of people needing council accomodation that is so scarce due to the Thatcher regime when any-one regardless of their income, could buy their council house. they promised that more houses would be built to meet the growing generation, but they never were.
If house prices come way down, even people already in council property will be able to buy their own home thus freeing up the much needed council property. Others will be able to affored the lower end of the house prices and this will lift a huge burden of demand on council accomodation.
This in turn saves government investment into more council homes being built enabling them to re-direct those funds into other area's needing re-investment, i.e. Education and Health.
:):):)At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The safe hanging over your head.
Victoria;1051589 wrote: Don't hold your breath Oscar. I'm not saying it wont ever happen but way back in the 1980's when the last crash happened there was a bank in the City of London where there was a lot of insider dealing and brown envelopes (bribes) being passed around.
The fraud squad got called in and OH had to give a statement of what he had seen even though he was only there refitting the airco.
The big bosses at this bank were often found at Checkers of a weekend and had a hot-line to Mrs T's office.
Surprise surprise... no-one ever went to jail the case just kinda melted away..
However, this time several of the banks' chief executives have already gone without a severance package - times change.
The fraud squad got called in and OH had to give a statement of what he had seen even though he was only there refitting the airco.
The big bosses at this bank were often found at Checkers of a weekend and had a hot-line to Mrs T's office.
Surprise surprise... no-one ever went to jail the case just kinda melted away..
However, this time several of the banks' chief executives have already gone without a severance package - times change.
The safe hanging over your head.
oscar;1053280 wrote: We all need sme fiscal stimulation but that's another thread :wah:
Are you sitting in some over-priced house???
This is something hubby and i were just discussing. A fall in house prices has it's benifits too. It makes housing far more affordable to those young and lower income people who have been forced to pay extortionate rent or beg for a council house simply because they have been out-priced in the property boom.
The only real losers are the greedy gits who buy property to re-condition and sell on at a massively inflated price.
The genuine home buyer buys their property to live in, to raise children in and to grow old in. Those with houses that are bought for a generation of life, need not worry. The housing market has historically dropped and risen. In ten years time, the drop in house prices here, will be bouyant and rising again. If a genuine buyer has every intention of say raising their family in their house, then in time, it will peak again.
The people who are suffering most as house prices fall are the one's who buy cheap purely with the intention of the market rising further, to then sell on for a more extortionate price.
The fall in house prices also has the benifit that it free's up a huge back-log and demand of people needing council accomodation that is so scarce due to the Thatcher regime when any-one regardless of their income, could buy their council house. they promised that more houses would be built to meet the growing generation, but they never were.
If house prices come way down, even people already in council property will be able to buy their own home thus freeing up the much needed council property. Others will be able to affored the lower end of the house prices and this will lift a huge burden of demand on council accomodation.
This in turn saves government investment into more council homes being built enabling them to re-direct those funds into other area's needing re-investment, i.e. Education and Health.
The down side to the present circumstances is not about house prices at all.
Business is business. We have to pay for the most basic of commodities whether we need it or not - water. This was not always the case and thankfully, no ones found a way of making us pay for the air we breathe yet. Though I'm sure this will come.
So, if we pay for water, why shouldn't we pay for housing. We have been paying for food for aeons. At least we get a choice. We can either buy a home outright, or rent. The problem at the moment is that with so many people losing their homes, which they have sweated for, landlords are getting their cake and eating it. Rents are up. So far as I have seen so far, no one has looked at the short term implications of this, let alone the long term.
I am not yet sure if this is a social or financial catastrophy.
I do know that landlords are looking to increase their rents within the next 6 months. Lucky landlords.
Are you sitting in some over-priced house???
This is something hubby and i were just discussing. A fall in house prices has it's benifits too. It makes housing far more affordable to those young and lower income people who have been forced to pay extortionate rent or beg for a council house simply because they have been out-priced in the property boom.
The only real losers are the greedy gits who buy property to re-condition and sell on at a massively inflated price.
The genuine home buyer buys their property to live in, to raise children in and to grow old in. Those with houses that are bought for a generation of life, need not worry. The housing market has historically dropped and risen. In ten years time, the drop in house prices here, will be bouyant and rising again. If a genuine buyer has every intention of say raising their family in their house, then in time, it will peak again.
The people who are suffering most as house prices fall are the one's who buy cheap purely with the intention of the market rising further, to then sell on for a more extortionate price.
The fall in house prices also has the benifit that it free's up a huge back-log and demand of people needing council accomodation that is so scarce due to the Thatcher regime when any-one regardless of their income, could buy their council house. they promised that more houses would be built to meet the growing generation, but they never were.
If house prices come way down, even people already in council property will be able to buy their own home thus freeing up the much needed council property. Others will be able to affored the lower end of the house prices and this will lift a huge burden of demand on council accomodation.
This in turn saves government investment into more council homes being built enabling them to re-direct those funds into other area's needing re-investment, i.e. Education and Health.
The down side to the present circumstances is not about house prices at all.
Business is business. We have to pay for the most basic of commodities whether we need it or not - water. This was not always the case and thankfully, no ones found a way of making us pay for the air we breathe yet. Though I'm sure this will come.
So, if we pay for water, why shouldn't we pay for housing. We have been paying for food for aeons. At least we get a choice. We can either buy a home outright, or rent. The problem at the moment is that with so many people losing their homes, which they have sweated for, landlords are getting their cake and eating it. Rents are up. So far as I have seen so far, no one has looked at the short term implications of this, let alone the long term.
I am not yet sure if this is a social or financial catastrophy.
I do know that landlords are looking to increase their rents within the next 6 months. Lucky landlords.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The safe hanging over your head.
OpenMind;1053309 wrote:
I do know that landlords are looking to increase their rents within the next 6 months. Lucky landlords.
Landlords can not be ruled by government nor a boss to raise rent. They are purely just greedy and jumping on the bandwagon of falling house prices. Landlords by now will know that with house prices falling, there are going to be more public looking to buy raising up from council accomodation or being able to move out of a one bedroomed council bungalow to something to suit their needs better and reduce cramp living conditions. I am in no doubt, that landlords have pre-empted this and as usual are out to make even more money. Hopefully, what will happen, is the landlords will end up in their own price war. Any-one looking to rent then this is certainly the time to do it as the landlords will be having their own price war. Thet won't want their property sitting empty bleeding money while tenants snap up lower bracket rent agreements, so they will be forced to come down to a realistic figure that people can afford or the prospective tenant will simply look for a better deal.
I do know that landlords are looking to increase their rents within the next 6 months. Lucky landlords.
Landlords can not be ruled by government nor a boss to raise rent. They are purely just greedy and jumping on the bandwagon of falling house prices. Landlords by now will know that with house prices falling, there are going to be more public looking to buy raising up from council accomodation or being able to move out of a one bedroomed council bungalow to something to suit their needs better and reduce cramp living conditions. I am in no doubt, that landlords have pre-empted this and as usual are out to make even more money. Hopefully, what will happen, is the landlords will end up in their own price war. Any-one looking to rent then this is certainly the time to do it as the landlords will be having their own price war. Thet won't want their property sitting empty bleeding money while tenants snap up lower bracket rent agreements, so they will be forced to come down to a realistic figure that people can afford or the prospective tenant will simply look for a better deal.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
wildhorses
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:08 pm
The safe hanging over your head.
[QUOTE=Galbally;1052308]I understand why you are lauding Gordon Brown, he has had a good crisis. However, these problems go very deep, and back into decisions made 20 and 30 years ago. I don't think these small measures are going to anywhere near enough to grapple with the real problem; which is that our financial system no longer reflects economic reality and that we have been living in a financially inspired illusion of prosperity; when in fact we have been living on credit for quite a long time, while dismantling much of the basis of our previous economic power.
To be honest, the process that is happening now is only the start of the reality check, and I fear for the stability of our economic and political systems, when the full impact of this crash become evident. Its far far worse (in my opinion) than the late 70s and early 80s period, perhaps even worse than the Crash of 1929, and I am not being melodramtic.
Its a worldwide general systems collapse, and the crash has occured becase essetially the global capital and financial system is rotten and was waitnig to collapse; indeed, all it took was a relatively small oil shock, and a peak in US consumer credit and housing market prices for the whole pyramid to collapse worldwide, (that should indicate how divorced from reality the sytem had become) and the repercussions are going to be very significant for everyone; and particularly us here in the cosseted western world.
So lowering interest rates, allowing sterling to devalue, tax cuts, and some government spending can help to ease the pain in Britain in the short term, and its understandable that the government will wish to do so to protect citizens from as much of the short term turmoil as possible; (and maybe get reelected as a consequence) but it can't undo the basic fact that we have been living far too high on the hog for too long without earning enough in real terms to justify it, now that situation is coming to an end.
We are sitting in overpriced houses on overpriced land, in economies based on shopping and selling houses to each other, in countries that no longer produce much, innovate, or export much to the rest of the world, the UK economy is based on international finance and housing, and both are in deep trouble, manufacturing is now only 14 percent of the economy, how is the UK going to improve its balance of trade and export earnings in the future? thats got to be very worrying.[/QUOTE]
This is abslutely the truth. And it scares the hec out of me. There is really nothing to drive a new economical wave. We have really all been in an economical depression for years, but they have been holding it together with pins and tape (credit).
To be honest, the process that is happening now is only the start of the reality check, and I fear for the stability of our economic and political systems, when the full impact of this crash become evident. Its far far worse (in my opinion) than the late 70s and early 80s period, perhaps even worse than the Crash of 1929, and I am not being melodramtic.
Its a worldwide general systems collapse, and the crash has occured becase essetially the global capital and financial system is rotten and was waitnig to collapse; indeed, all it took was a relatively small oil shock, and a peak in US consumer credit and housing market prices for the whole pyramid to collapse worldwide, (that should indicate how divorced from reality the sytem had become) and the repercussions are going to be very significant for everyone; and particularly us here in the cosseted western world.
So lowering interest rates, allowing sterling to devalue, tax cuts, and some government spending can help to ease the pain in Britain in the short term, and its understandable that the government will wish to do so to protect citizens from as much of the short term turmoil as possible; (and maybe get reelected as a consequence) but it can't undo the basic fact that we have been living far too high on the hog for too long without earning enough in real terms to justify it, now that situation is coming to an end.
We are sitting in overpriced houses on overpriced land, in economies based on shopping and selling houses to each other, in countries that no longer produce much, innovate, or export much to the rest of the world, the UK economy is based on international finance and housing, and both are in deep trouble, manufacturing is now only 14 percent of the economy, how is the UK going to improve its balance of trade and export earnings in the future? thats got to be very worrying.[/QUOTE]
This is abslutely the truth. And it scares the hec out of me. There is really nothing to drive a new economical wave. We have really all been in an economical depression for years, but they have been holding it together with pins and tape (credit).
The safe hanging over your head.
wildhorses;1053377 wrote: [QUOTE=Galbally;1052308]I understand why you are lauding Gordon Brown, he has had a good crisis. However, these problems go very deep, and back into decisions made 20 and 30 years ago. I don't think these small measures are going to anywhere near enough to grapple with the real problem; which is that our financial system no longer reflects economic reality and that we have been living in a financially inspired illusion of prosperity; when in fact we have been living on credit for quite a long time, while dismantling much of the basis of our previous economic power.
To be honest, the process that is happening now is only the start of the reality check, and I fear for the stability of our economic and political systems, when the full impact of this crash become evident. Its far far worse (in my opinion) than the late 70s and early 80s period, perhaps even worse than the Crash of 1929, and I am not being melodramtic.
Its a worldwide general systems collapse, and the crash has occured becase essetially the global capital and financial system is rotten and was waitnig to collapse; indeed, all it took was a relatively small oil shock, and a peak in US consumer credit and housing market prices for the whole pyramid to collapse worldwide, (that should indicate how divorced from reality the sytem had become) and the repercussions are going to be very significant for everyone; and particularly us here in the cosseted western world.
So lowering interest rates, allowing sterling to devalue, tax cuts, and some government spending can help to ease the pain in Britain in the short term, and its understandable that the government will wish to do so to protect citizens from as much of the short term turmoil as possible; (and maybe get reelected as a consequence) but it can't undo the basic fact that we have been living far too high on the hog for too long without earning enough in real terms to justify it, now that situation is coming to an end.
We are sitting in overpriced houses on overpriced land, in economies based on shopping and selling houses to each other, in countries that no longer produce much, innovate, or export much to the rest of the world, the UK economy is based on international finance and housing, and both are in deep trouble, manufacturing is now only 14 percent of the economy, how is the UK going to improve its balance of trade and export earnings in the future? thats got to be very worrying.[/QUOTE]
This is abslutely the truth. And it scares the hec out of me. There is really nothing to drive a new economical wave. We have really all been in an economical depression for years, but they have been holding it together with pins and tape (credit).
I think you understand my point, anyone who sees the underlying problem that we don't actually make or sell very much any more to earn money, is scared for the future, just like you are.
To be honest, the process that is happening now is only the start of the reality check, and I fear for the stability of our economic and political systems, when the full impact of this crash become evident. Its far far worse (in my opinion) than the late 70s and early 80s period, perhaps even worse than the Crash of 1929, and I am not being melodramtic.
Its a worldwide general systems collapse, and the crash has occured becase essetially the global capital and financial system is rotten and was waitnig to collapse; indeed, all it took was a relatively small oil shock, and a peak in US consumer credit and housing market prices for the whole pyramid to collapse worldwide, (that should indicate how divorced from reality the sytem had become) and the repercussions are going to be very significant for everyone; and particularly us here in the cosseted western world.
So lowering interest rates, allowing sterling to devalue, tax cuts, and some government spending can help to ease the pain in Britain in the short term, and its understandable that the government will wish to do so to protect citizens from as much of the short term turmoil as possible; (and maybe get reelected as a consequence) but it can't undo the basic fact that we have been living far too high on the hog for too long without earning enough in real terms to justify it, now that situation is coming to an end.
We are sitting in overpriced houses on overpriced land, in economies based on shopping and selling houses to each other, in countries that no longer produce much, innovate, or export much to the rest of the world, the UK economy is based on international finance and housing, and both are in deep trouble, manufacturing is now only 14 percent of the economy, how is the UK going to improve its balance of trade and export earnings in the future? thats got to be very worrying.[/QUOTE]
This is abslutely the truth. And it scares the hec out of me. There is really nothing to drive a new economical wave. We have really all been in an economical depression for years, but they have been holding it together with pins and tape (credit).
I think you understand my point, anyone who sees the underlying problem that we don't actually make or sell very much any more to earn money, is scared for the future, just like you are.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The safe hanging over your head.
oscar;1053280 wrote: We all need sme fiscal stimulation but that's another thread :wah:
Are you sitting in some over-priced house???
This is something hubby and i were just discussing. A fall in house prices has it's benifits too. It makes housing far more affordable to those young and lower income people who have been forced to pay extortionate rent or beg for a council house simply because they have been out-priced in the property boom.
The only real losers are the greedy gits who buy property to re-condition and sell on at a massively inflated price.
The genuine home buyer buys their property to live in, to raise children in and to grow old in. Those with houses that are bought for a generation of life, need not worry. The housing market has historically dropped and risen. In ten years time, the drop in house prices here, will be bouyant and rising again. If a genuine buyer has every intention of say raising their family in their house, then in time, it will peak again.
The people who are suffering most as house prices fall are the one's who buy cheap purely with the intention of the market rising further, to then sell on for a more extortionate price.
The fall in house prices also has the benifit that it free's up a huge back-log and demand of people needing council accomodation that is so scarce due to the Thatcher regime when any-one regardless of their income, could buy their council house. they promised that more houses would be built to meet the growing generation, but they never were.
If house prices come way down, even people already in council property will be able to buy their own home thus freeing up the much needed council property. Others will be able to affored the lower end of the house prices and this will lift a huge burden of demand on council accomodation.
This in turn saves government investment into more council homes being built enabling them to re-direct those funds into other area's needing re-investment, i.e. Education and Health.
No, I rent, I had the opportunity to buy a house in the early 2000s, but I though even then that the whole thing was a pyramid scam, I could have bought and sold after 12 or 24 months I suppose, but then myself and my girlfriend of the time would undoubtedly have put the equity earned into a deposit for an even bigger house like a lot of my friend did, some of whom are already facing unemployment while paying massive mortgages to the banks that facilitate the boom by funding all the speculation.
Its my opinion that the housing market shouldn't be an investment vehicle, houses should be places that people live in, not finance life-styles out of. I agree that in the long-term prices returning to a more normal level (i.e. accurately reflecting the earning potential of a house or a piece of land, which would be about 30-40 percent of what they are now). However, once they reach that level I don't think they will once more become a new property cicrus, and they shouldn't not if want our economies to have a long term future.
I would also say that we need to get away of the idea of having economies that are basically based on building houses, selling houses, and shopping on credit cards and loans leveraged on the equity in your house. A country is like a household, essentially you need to earn more than you spend if you want to be prosperous.
Thats the problem, we are not earning more than we spend, we are spending far more than we earn and we are having to borrow the rest, (most is not through government borrowing, its through banks raising money from abroad and then loaning it to people to buy these houses and all this rubbish we own) that may not seem so bad when the world is awash with cash, but that era is over, we are collectively broke and massively in debt, and we urgently need to pay our way by creating constructive and productive jobs and industries. If we don't do that we are going to go round in ever-decreasing circles and our nations are going to become economically poorer and weaker.
Are you sitting in some over-priced house???
This is something hubby and i were just discussing. A fall in house prices has it's benifits too. It makes housing far more affordable to those young and lower income people who have been forced to pay extortionate rent or beg for a council house simply because they have been out-priced in the property boom.
The only real losers are the greedy gits who buy property to re-condition and sell on at a massively inflated price.
The genuine home buyer buys their property to live in, to raise children in and to grow old in. Those with houses that are bought for a generation of life, need not worry. The housing market has historically dropped and risen. In ten years time, the drop in house prices here, will be bouyant and rising again. If a genuine buyer has every intention of say raising their family in their house, then in time, it will peak again.
The people who are suffering most as house prices fall are the one's who buy cheap purely with the intention of the market rising further, to then sell on for a more extortionate price.
The fall in house prices also has the benifit that it free's up a huge back-log and demand of people needing council accomodation that is so scarce due to the Thatcher regime when any-one regardless of their income, could buy their council house. they promised that more houses would be built to meet the growing generation, but they never were.
If house prices come way down, even people already in council property will be able to buy their own home thus freeing up the much needed council property. Others will be able to affored the lower end of the house prices and this will lift a huge burden of demand on council accomodation.
This in turn saves government investment into more council homes being built enabling them to re-direct those funds into other area's needing re-investment, i.e. Education and Health.
No, I rent, I had the opportunity to buy a house in the early 2000s, but I though even then that the whole thing was a pyramid scam, I could have bought and sold after 12 or 24 months I suppose, but then myself and my girlfriend of the time would undoubtedly have put the equity earned into a deposit for an even bigger house like a lot of my friend did, some of whom are already facing unemployment while paying massive mortgages to the banks that facilitate the boom by funding all the speculation.
Its my opinion that the housing market shouldn't be an investment vehicle, houses should be places that people live in, not finance life-styles out of. I agree that in the long-term prices returning to a more normal level (i.e. accurately reflecting the earning potential of a house or a piece of land, which would be about 30-40 percent of what they are now). However, once they reach that level I don't think they will once more become a new property cicrus, and they shouldn't not if want our economies to have a long term future.
I would also say that we need to get away of the idea of having economies that are basically based on building houses, selling houses, and shopping on credit cards and loans leveraged on the equity in your house. A country is like a household, essentially you need to earn more than you spend if you want to be prosperous.
Thats the problem, we are not earning more than we spend, we are spending far more than we earn and we are having to borrow the rest, (most is not through government borrowing, its through banks raising money from abroad and then loaning it to people to buy these houses and all this rubbish we own) that may not seem so bad when the world is awash with cash, but that era is over, we are collectively broke and massively in debt, and we urgently need to pay our way by creating constructive and productive jobs and industries. If we don't do that we are going to go round in ever-decreasing circles and our nations are going to become economically poorer and weaker.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The safe hanging over your head.
oscar;1053350 wrote: Landlords can not be ruled by government nor a boss to raise rent. They are purely just greedy and jumping on the bandwagon of falling house prices. Landlords by now will know that with house prices falling, there are going to be more public looking to buy raising up from council accomodation or being able to move out of a one bedroomed council bungalow to something to suit their needs better and reduce cramp living conditions. I am in no doubt, that landlords have pre-empted this and as usual are out to make even more money. Hopefully, what will happen, is the landlords will end up in their own price war. Any-one looking to rent then this is certainly the time to do it as the landlords will be having their own price war. Thet won't want their property sitting empty bleeding money while tenants snap up lower bracket rent agreements, so they will be forced to come down to a realistic figure that people can afford or the prospective tenant will simply look for a better deal.
Essentially, your argument, being based on supply and demand is right. However, homeowners are defaulting on their mortgages and having their homes repossessed. This means they will have trouble getting another mortgage as this will be a black mark on their credit rating.
The repossessed homes are being auctioned off. They are going to be bought by developers, property investors, and landlords at relatively low prices.
In my area in Leeds, there are several new high rise flats that have been put up or are in the process of being built. I can see several from my window and I know there are more beyond. I also know that developers are looking to buy the housing around here to build more of the same.
Essentially, your argument, being based on supply and demand is right. However, homeowners are defaulting on their mortgages and having their homes repossessed. This means they will have trouble getting another mortgage as this will be a black mark on their credit rating.
The repossessed homes are being auctioned off. They are going to be bought by developers, property investors, and landlords at relatively low prices.
In my area in Leeds, there are several new high rise flats that have been put up or are in the process of being built. I can see several from my window and I know there are more beyond. I also know that developers are looking to buy the housing around here to build more of the same.
The safe hanging over your head.
Galbally;1053611 wrote: No, I rent, I had the opportunity to buy a house in the early 2000s, but I though even then that the whole thing was a pyramid scam, I could have bought and sold after 12 or 24 months I suppose, but then myself and my girlfriend of the time would undoubtedly have put the equity earned into a deposit for an even bigger house like a lot of my friend did, some of whom are already facing unemployment while paying massive mortgages to the banks that facilitate the boom by funding all the speculation.
Its my opinion that the housing market shouldn't be an investment vehicle, houses should be places that people live in, not finance life-styles out of. I agree that in the long-term prices returning to a more normal level (i.e. accurately reflecting the earning potential of a house or a piece of land, which would be about 30-40 percent of what they are now). However, once they reach that level I don't think they will once more become a new property cicrus, and they shouldn't not if want our economies to have a long term future.
I would also say that we need to get away of the idea of having economies that are basically based on building houses, selling houses, and shopping on credit cards and loans leveraged on the equity in your house. A country is like a household, essentially you need to earn more than you spend if you want to be prosperous. Thats the problem, we are not earning more than we spend, we are spending far more than we earn and we are having to borrow the rest, (most is not through government borrowing, its through banks raising money from abroad and then loaning it to people to buy these houses and all this rubbish we own) that may not seem so bad when the world is awash with cash, but that era is over, we are collectively broke and massively in debt, and we urgently need to pay our way by creating constructive and productive jobs and industries. If we don't do that we are going to go round in ever-decreasing circles and our nations are going to become economically poorer and weaker.
I bought my first flat in the mid 1980's at the height of that property boom, moved house borrowed slightly more and this time next year when my endowment matures will be mortgage free. I also didn't fall for the borrow as much as possible argument. having been unemployed for so long it was always at the back of my mind it could happen again. If you're sensible buying is always better than renting.
Many are paying in rent more than a mortgage would cost but are trapped because they cannot save because of the high rent. The stupidest thing the govt and the lenders did was allow people to borrow more than a property was worth to help them get on the property market rather than allowing prices to drop because of lack of demand. If people can't afford houses because they are too expensive then prices are ging to drop you don't need tom inflate them by devices like that or shared equity scheme. Even our half wit of a chancellor at the to=ime gordon brown should have been able to work that one out. I'm ambivalent about buy to let-you do need a private letting market but it undoubtedly pushed up demand and therefore price for certain types of houses making it even harder to get on the housing market. I have no sympathy for those whom jumped on the bandwagon without thinking it through. Mind you the media were pretty good at hyping property up as well.
Plenty of people have been warning this was going to happen-unfashionable doomsayers in the wilderness. Trying looking at the proper financial press. You don't you don't need any relevant experience or qualifications to be a financial reporter?
Its my opinion that the housing market shouldn't be an investment vehicle, houses should be places that people live in, not finance life-styles out of. I agree that in the long-term prices returning to a more normal level (i.e. accurately reflecting the earning potential of a house or a piece of land, which would be about 30-40 percent of what they are now). However, once they reach that level I don't think they will once more become a new property cicrus, and they shouldn't not if want our economies to have a long term future.
I would also say that we need to get away of the idea of having economies that are basically based on building houses, selling houses, and shopping on credit cards and loans leveraged on the equity in your house. A country is like a household, essentially you need to earn more than you spend if you want to be prosperous. Thats the problem, we are not earning more than we spend, we are spending far more than we earn and we are having to borrow the rest, (most is not through government borrowing, its through banks raising money from abroad and then loaning it to people to buy these houses and all this rubbish we own) that may not seem so bad when the world is awash with cash, but that era is over, we are collectively broke and massively in debt, and we urgently need to pay our way by creating constructive and productive jobs and industries. If we don't do that we are going to go round in ever-decreasing circles and our nations are going to become economically poorer and weaker.
I bought my first flat in the mid 1980's at the height of that property boom, moved house borrowed slightly more and this time next year when my endowment matures will be mortgage free. I also didn't fall for the borrow as much as possible argument. having been unemployed for so long it was always at the back of my mind it could happen again. If you're sensible buying is always better than renting.
Many are paying in rent more than a mortgage would cost but are trapped because they cannot save because of the high rent. The stupidest thing the govt and the lenders did was allow people to borrow more than a property was worth to help them get on the property market rather than allowing prices to drop because of lack of demand. If people can't afford houses because they are too expensive then prices are ging to drop you don't need tom inflate them by devices like that or shared equity scheme. Even our half wit of a chancellor at the to=ime gordon brown should have been able to work that one out. I'm ambivalent about buy to let-you do need a private letting market but it undoubtedly pushed up demand and therefore price for certain types of houses making it even harder to get on the housing market. I have no sympathy for those whom jumped on the bandwagon without thinking it through. Mind you the media were pretty good at hyping property up as well.
Plenty of people have been warning this was going to happen-unfashionable doomsayers in the wilderness. Trying looking at the proper financial press. You don't you don't need any relevant experience or qualifications to be a financial reporter?