Somewhere in America there are a thousand small businesses employing ten people each. They are relatively low paid, they work hard and it is unlikely they have a pension or robust health benefits, let alone other benefits. They may be restaurants, florists, travel agents, auto repair shops, or any number of things.
Today they are struggling, the economy is bad, people are cutting back on their spending, especially on luxuries and even postponing what otherwise would be a necessity. The suppliers to these businesses are also having a difficult time and the snowball effect is rampant.
Ten thousand people are at risk for losing their job. Who cares? :-1
Other organizations are also on the edge. Some of these have been around for decades and for much of that that time they were fat, dumb and happy. They built up long term liabilities for pensions and medical benefits, they sold inefficient products, they and their unions agreed to work rules and productivity measures that, well, are not very productive. Unions asked for and management gave away the store all the time ignoring or not understanding the future trends written on the wall. They inadequately assessed the competition; they were late in the game of offering the products people wanted to buy.
Who cares? Ooops, it appears politicians care. Here we go again, one more group of incompetent people shifting the results of their incompetence to the American public under the mantel of “we are too big to fail. Well, no, you are not too big to fail; you and your unions deserve to fail. Do not tell me about all the concessions you made in the last five years; too little too late. You should have thought about that when you had people sitting around for a year with pay for doing nothing. You should have thought about that when the Japanese automakers began to kick your butts on quality and stole the American consumer right from under your nose.
Besides, a November 10, 2008 WSJ article notes: “United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger has said more union concessions are out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires on Friday. “We feel we've already stepped up" by giving ground last year on future workers' pay and benefits and retiree health care, Mr. Reuther said. The UAW wants assurances a bailout would help secure its members' retirement and health-care benefits. Let us hope one of the conditions of any auto bailout requires the unions to accept work rules similar to the non union shops competing with GM, Chrysler and Ford¦like that is going to happen. :p
The reality is that the Big 3 (or not so Big 3) automakers are not going away, at worst there will be major downsizing, consolidation and the industry will look quite different. Who knows, perhaps some smarter automaker say in Bangladesh, or Kuwait will buy them. Hey Hugo, do I have an investment for you; it fits well with your oil company. Between the Big 3, they sell about 17 million cars a year. That market is not vanishing so someone will have to make and sell those cars to Americans and they will need workers and suppliers to do it.
Actually, the problem will not even be solved with cash from Uncle Sam (or us if you prefer) simply because the cash does not change much at all. The cash will not change work rules, or get new products with higher mileage or make the UAW more amiable to change.
Frankly, I care more about those ten thousand people in all those small businesses who work 12-14 hours a day with no bonus and no fat pension unless they save for it when they can.
Congress and the feds in general seem more than willing to throw our money around to private firms under the guise there is no other choice. Nonsense, if there is no choice for a firm of a 100,000 employees (the automakers have far more employees) why is there no choice for 10,000 small businesses with 100,000 employees?
Moreover, what about the 100,000 plus Americans who work at auto factories not owned by the Big 3, do they deserve to be put at a disadvantage engineered by the federal government?
The workers at GM, Chrysler and Ford need jobs, but America doesn’t need to buy GM, Chrysler and Ford vehicles, we seem to be doing quite well with what we have been buying. Take a stroll in any parking lot and count the foreign made cars.
If you are inclined to be sympathetic to the auto industry, the answer is simple; Americans should not buy any car not made by GM, Chrysler and Ford¦problem solved.
No Bailout for the Big Three
-
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
-
wildhorses
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:08 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1053385 wrote: Somewhere in America there are a thousand small businesses employing ten people each. They are relatively low paid, they work hard and it is unlikely they have a pension or robust health benefits, let alone other benefits. They may be restaurants, florists, travel agents, auto repair shops, or any number of things.
Today they are struggling, the economy is bad, people are cutting back on their spending, especially on luxuries and even postponing what otherwise would be a necessity. The suppliers to these businesses are also having a difficult time and the snowball effect is rampant.
Ten thousand people are at risk for losing their job. Who cares? :-1
Other organizations are also on the edge. Some of these have been around for decades and for much of that that time they were fat, dumb and happy. They built up long term liabilities for pensions and medical benefits, they sold inefficient products, they and their unions agreed to work rules and productivity measures that, well, are not very productive. Unions asked for and management gave away the store all the time ignoring or not understanding the future trends written on the wall. They inadequately assessed the competition; they were late in the game of offering the products people wanted to buy.
Who cares? Ooops, it appears politicians care. Here we go again, one more group of incompetent people shifting the results of their incompetence to the American public under the mantel of “we are too big to fail. Well, no, you are not too big to fail; you and your unions deserve to fail. Do not tell me about all the concessions you made in the last five years; too little too late. You should have thought about that when you had people sitting around for a year with pay for doing nothing. You should have thought about that when the Japanese automakers began to kick your butts on quality and stole the American consumer right from under your nose.
Besides, a November 10, 2008 WSJ article notes: “United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger has said more union concessions are out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires on Friday. “We feel we've already stepped up" by giving ground last year on future workers' pay and benefits and retiree health care, Mr. Reuther said. The UAW wants assurances a bailout would help secure its members' retirement and health-care benefits. Let us hope one of the conditions of any auto bailout requires the unions to accept work rules similar to the non union shops competing with GM, Chrysler and Ford¦like that is going to happen. :p
The reality is that the Big 3 (or not so Big 3) automakers are not going away, at worst there will be major downsizing, consolidation and the industry will look quite different. Who knows, perhaps some smarter automaker say in Bangladesh, or Kuwait will buy them. Hey Hugo, do I have an investment for you; it fits well with your oil company. Between the Big 3, they sell about 17 million cars a year. That market is not vanishing so someone will have to make and sell those cars to Americans and they will need workers and suppliers to do it.
Actually, the problem will not even be solved with cash from Uncle Sam (or us if you prefer) simply because the cash does not change much at all. The cash will not change work rules, or get new products with higher mileage or make the UAW more amiable to change.
Frankly, I care more about those ten thousand people in all those small businesses who work 12-14 hours a day with no bonus and no fat pension unless they save for it when they can.
Congress and the feds in general seem more than willing to throw our money around to private firms under the guise there is no other choice. Nonsense, if there is no choice for a firm of a 100,000 employees (the automakers have far more employees) why is there no choice for 10,000 small businesses with 100,000 employees?
Moreover, what about the 100,000 plus Americans who work at auto factories not owned by the Big 3, do they deserve to be put at a disadvantage engineered by the federal government?
The workers at GM, Chrysler and Ford need jobs, but America doesn’t need to buy GM, Chrysler and Ford vehicles, we seem to be doing quite well with what we have been buying. Take a stroll in any parking lot and count the foreign made cars.
If you are inclined to be sympathetic to the auto industry, the answer is simple; Americans should not buy any car not made by GM, Chrysler and Ford¦problem solved.
That is exactly how to solve the problem. Buy American. It will cost more, but not much more. This should be done with all products bought by Americans. Support the American Worker. Companies can only outsource jobs if we buy the products they produce. Reward the companies who keep jobs here and punish the companies that send jobs overseas.
OK....OK.....I am agreeeing with Quinn again.
Today they are struggling, the economy is bad, people are cutting back on their spending, especially on luxuries and even postponing what otherwise would be a necessity. The suppliers to these businesses are also having a difficult time and the snowball effect is rampant.
Ten thousand people are at risk for losing their job. Who cares? :-1
Other organizations are also on the edge. Some of these have been around for decades and for much of that that time they were fat, dumb and happy. They built up long term liabilities for pensions and medical benefits, they sold inefficient products, they and their unions agreed to work rules and productivity measures that, well, are not very productive. Unions asked for and management gave away the store all the time ignoring or not understanding the future trends written on the wall. They inadequately assessed the competition; they were late in the game of offering the products people wanted to buy.
Who cares? Ooops, it appears politicians care. Here we go again, one more group of incompetent people shifting the results of their incompetence to the American public under the mantel of “we are too big to fail. Well, no, you are not too big to fail; you and your unions deserve to fail. Do not tell me about all the concessions you made in the last five years; too little too late. You should have thought about that when you had people sitting around for a year with pay for doing nothing. You should have thought about that when the Japanese automakers began to kick your butts on quality and stole the American consumer right from under your nose.
Besides, a November 10, 2008 WSJ article notes: “United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger has said more union concessions are out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires on Friday. “We feel we've already stepped up" by giving ground last year on future workers' pay and benefits and retiree health care, Mr. Reuther said. The UAW wants assurances a bailout would help secure its members' retirement and health-care benefits. Let us hope one of the conditions of any auto bailout requires the unions to accept work rules similar to the non union shops competing with GM, Chrysler and Ford¦like that is going to happen. :p
The reality is that the Big 3 (or not so Big 3) automakers are not going away, at worst there will be major downsizing, consolidation and the industry will look quite different. Who knows, perhaps some smarter automaker say in Bangladesh, or Kuwait will buy them. Hey Hugo, do I have an investment for you; it fits well with your oil company. Between the Big 3, they sell about 17 million cars a year. That market is not vanishing so someone will have to make and sell those cars to Americans and they will need workers and suppliers to do it.
Actually, the problem will not even be solved with cash from Uncle Sam (or us if you prefer) simply because the cash does not change much at all. The cash will not change work rules, or get new products with higher mileage or make the UAW more amiable to change.
Frankly, I care more about those ten thousand people in all those small businesses who work 12-14 hours a day with no bonus and no fat pension unless they save for it when they can.
Congress and the feds in general seem more than willing to throw our money around to private firms under the guise there is no other choice. Nonsense, if there is no choice for a firm of a 100,000 employees (the automakers have far more employees) why is there no choice for 10,000 small businesses with 100,000 employees?
Moreover, what about the 100,000 plus Americans who work at auto factories not owned by the Big 3, do they deserve to be put at a disadvantage engineered by the federal government?
The workers at GM, Chrysler and Ford need jobs, but America doesn’t need to buy GM, Chrysler and Ford vehicles, we seem to be doing quite well with what we have been buying. Take a stroll in any parking lot and count the foreign made cars.
If you are inclined to be sympathetic to the auto industry, the answer is simple; Americans should not buy any car not made by GM, Chrysler and Ford¦problem solved.
That is exactly how to solve the problem. Buy American. It will cost more, but not much more. This should be done with all products bought by Americans. Support the American Worker. Companies can only outsource jobs if we buy the products they produce. Reward the companies who keep jobs here and punish the companies that send jobs overseas.
OK....OK.....I am agreeeing with Quinn again.
-
southern yankee
- Posts: 3906
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1053385 wrote: Somewhere in America there are a thousand small businesses employing ten people each. They are relatively low paid, they work hard and it is unlikely they have a pension or robust health benefits, let alone other benefits. They may be restaurants, florists, travel agents, auto repair shops, or any number of things.
Today they are struggling, the economy is bad, people are cutting back on their spending, especially on luxuries and even postponing what otherwise would be a necessity. The suppliers to these businesses are also having a difficult time and the snowball effect is rampant.
Ten thousand people are at risk for losing their job. Who cares? :-1
Other organizations are also on the edge. Some of these have been around for decades and for much of that that time they were fat, dumb and happy. They built up long term liabilities for pensions and medical benefits, they sold inefficient products, they and their unions agreed to work rules and productivity measures that, well, are not very productive. Unions asked for and management gave away the store all the time ignoring or not understanding the future trends written on the wall. They inadequately assessed the competition; they were late in the game of offering the products people wanted to buy.
Who cares? Ooops, it appears politicians care. Here we go again, one more group of incompetent people shifting the results of their incompetence to the American public under the mantel of “we are too big to fail. Well, no, you are not too big to fail; you and your unions deserve to fail. Do not tell me about all the concessions you made in the last five years; too little too late. You should have thought about that when you had people sitting around for a year with pay for doing nothing. You should have thought about that when the Japanese automakers began to kick your butts on quality and stole the American consumer right from under your nose.
Besides, a November 10, 2008 WSJ article notes: “United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger has said more union concessions are out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires on Friday. “We feel we've already stepped up" by giving ground last year on future workers' pay and benefits and retiree health care, Mr. Reuther said. The UAW wants assurances a bailout would help secure its members' retirement and health-care benefits. Let us hope one of the conditions of any auto bailout requires the unions to accept work rules similar to the non union shops competing with GM, Chrysler and Ford¦like that is going to happen. :p
The reality is that the Big 3 (or not so Big 3) automakers are not going away, at worst there will be major downsizing, consolidation and the industry will look quite different. Who knows, perhaps some smarter automaker say in Bangladesh, or Kuwait will buy them. Hey Hugo, do I have an investment for you; it fits well with your oil company. Between the Big 3, they sell about 17 million cars a year. That market is not vanishing so someone will have to make and sell those cars to Americans and they will need workers and suppliers to do it.
Actually, the problem will not even be solved with cash from Uncle Sam (or us if you prefer) simply because the cash does not change much at all. The cash will not change work rules, or get new products with higher mileage or make the UAW more amiable to change.
Frankly, I care more about those ten thousand people in all those small businesses who work 12-14 hours a day with no bonus and no fat pension unless they save for it when they can.
Congress and the feds in general seem more than willing to throw our money around to private firms under the guise there is no other choice. Nonsense, if there is no choice for a firm of a 100,000 employees (the automakers have far more employees) why is there no choice for 10,000 small businesses with 100,000 employees?
Moreover, what about the 100,000 plus Americans who work at auto factories not owned by the Big 3, do they deserve to be put at a disadvantage engineered by the federal government?
The workers at GM, Chrysler and Ford need jobs, but America doesn’t need to buy GM, Chrysler and Ford vehicles, we seem to be doing quite well with what we have been buying. Take a stroll in any parking lot and count the foreign made cars.
If you are inclined to be sympathetic to the auto industry, the answer is simple; Americans should not buy any car not made by GM, Chrysler and Ford¦problem solved. I wish it was that way Buy US ONLY. My husband only buys Dodge or Ford cars or trucks. Now before we met. I had only Toyota's. BECAUSE they were much more reliable. For a single woman. Every American made auto i had was a money pit. But with his profession being a mechanic. He can make his own repairs. Keeping our vehicles on the road. But as far as for me. I trust Toyota's. not to leave me high and dry.
Today they are struggling, the economy is bad, people are cutting back on their spending, especially on luxuries and even postponing what otherwise would be a necessity. The suppliers to these businesses are also having a difficult time and the snowball effect is rampant.
Ten thousand people are at risk for losing their job. Who cares? :-1
Other organizations are also on the edge. Some of these have been around for decades and for much of that that time they were fat, dumb and happy. They built up long term liabilities for pensions and medical benefits, they sold inefficient products, they and their unions agreed to work rules and productivity measures that, well, are not very productive. Unions asked for and management gave away the store all the time ignoring or not understanding the future trends written on the wall. They inadequately assessed the competition; they were late in the game of offering the products people wanted to buy.
Who cares? Ooops, it appears politicians care. Here we go again, one more group of incompetent people shifting the results of their incompetence to the American public under the mantel of “we are too big to fail. Well, no, you are not too big to fail; you and your unions deserve to fail. Do not tell me about all the concessions you made in the last five years; too little too late. You should have thought about that when you had people sitting around for a year with pay for doing nothing. You should have thought about that when the Japanese automakers began to kick your butts on quality and stole the American consumer right from under your nose.
Besides, a November 10, 2008 WSJ article notes: “United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger has said more union concessions are out of the question, union lobbyist Alan Reuther said in an interview with Dow Jones Newswires on Friday. “We feel we've already stepped up" by giving ground last year on future workers' pay and benefits and retiree health care, Mr. Reuther said. The UAW wants assurances a bailout would help secure its members' retirement and health-care benefits. Let us hope one of the conditions of any auto bailout requires the unions to accept work rules similar to the non union shops competing with GM, Chrysler and Ford¦like that is going to happen. :p
The reality is that the Big 3 (or not so Big 3) automakers are not going away, at worst there will be major downsizing, consolidation and the industry will look quite different. Who knows, perhaps some smarter automaker say in Bangladesh, or Kuwait will buy them. Hey Hugo, do I have an investment for you; it fits well with your oil company. Between the Big 3, they sell about 17 million cars a year. That market is not vanishing so someone will have to make and sell those cars to Americans and they will need workers and suppliers to do it.
Actually, the problem will not even be solved with cash from Uncle Sam (or us if you prefer) simply because the cash does not change much at all. The cash will not change work rules, or get new products with higher mileage or make the UAW more amiable to change.
Frankly, I care more about those ten thousand people in all those small businesses who work 12-14 hours a day with no bonus and no fat pension unless they save for it when they can.
Congress and the feds in general seem more than willing to throw our money around to private firms under the guise there is no other choice. Nonsense, if there is no choice for a firm of a 100,000 employees (the automakers have far more employees) why is there no choice for 10,000 small businesses with 100,000 employees?
Moreover, what about the 100,000 plus Americans who work at auto factories not owned by the Big 3, do they deserve to be put at a disadvantage engineered by the federal government?
The workers at GM, Chrysler and Ford need jobs, but America doesn’t need to buy GM, Chrysler and Ford vehicles, we seem to be doing quite well with what we have been buying. Take a stroll in any parking lot and count the foreign made cars.
If you are inclined to be sympathetic to the auto industry, the answer is simple; Americans should not buy any car not made by GM, Chrysler and Ford¦problem solved. I wish it was that way Buy US ONLY. My husband only buys Dodge or Ford cars or trucks. Now before we met. I had only Toyota's. BECAUSE they were much more reliable. For a single woman. Every American made auto i had was a money pit. But with his profession being a mechanic. He can make his own repairs. Keeping our vehicles on the road. But as far as for me. I trust Toyota's. not to leave me high and dry.
-
LilacDragon
- Posts: 1382
- Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:23 am
No Bailout for the Big Three
I live in Michigan and while I don't work for an auto company, I really don't want to see them go belly up.
I work for a small company and I get a crappy paycheck, but a paycheck non the less. I don't have health insurance because it would cost me more then one third of what I make in a month. I don't have any kind of retirement plan because - on the $1,300 I make a month, it is hard to pay all the bills, keep gas in the car and buy groceries.
DH had a job with a company that made car parts. He was laid off just before his unit was notified that it was being redeployed to Iraq. This means that right after Christmas, he will be looking for a job. There aren't any.
Michigan's unemployment rate - as of October - was 8.7%. If the auto companies go out of business that rate will climb to well over 10%. The impact is going to effect everyone in the state whether they work for one of the big three or not. Small businesses that are just barely hanging on now will disappear as people have no money to use their services. Our children who are graduating for college will be going to other states to find jobs.
I don't like the Big 3. I don't think that any of them have made the kind of decisions necessary to sustain long term growth and solvency. But the damage that will be done to areas that are supported by the industry and those who work within the industry is going to be just devastating.
And yes - I drive a Chevy.
I work for a small company and I get a crappy paycheck, but a paycheck non the less. I don't have health insurance because it would cost me more then one third of what I make in a month. I don't have any kind of retirement plan because - on the $1,300 I make a month, it is hard to pay all the bills, keep gas in the car and buy groceries.
DH had a job with a company that made car parts. He was laid off just before his unit was notified that it was being redeployed to Iraq. This means that right after Christmas, he will be looking for a job. There aren't any.
Michigan's unemployment rate - as of October - was 8.7%. If the auto companies go out of business that rate will climb to well over 10%. The impact is going to effect everyone in the state whether they work for one of the big three or not. Small businesses that are just barely hanging on now will disappear as people have no money to use their services. Our children who are graduating for college will be going to other states to find jobs.
I don't like the Big 3. I don't think that any of them have made the kind of decisions necessary to sustain long term growth and solvency. But the damage that will be done to areas that are supported by the industry and those who work within the industry is going to be just devastating.
And yes - I drive a Chevy.
Sandi
No Bailout for the Big Three
I think that the answer in the long term for these companies can only be build better quality, more reliable, more fuel-efficient American cars, and people in the States will undoubtedly buy them. They can do it, they already do it in Europe where they seem to take the competition a bit more seriously; I don't see why they can't do the same thing over there.
The scale of the downturn in the US car industry is quite scary really, all car manufacturers across the world are facing plummeting sales, (including Toyota and VW etc) but the US ones seem to be in very very serious trouble. I agree with Quinn in that the companies only really have themselves to blame, and their bad decisions in the past, though thats little comfort to the ordinary workers. Very hard times coming I am afraid.
The scale of the downturn in the US car industry is quite scary really, all car manufacturers across the world are facing plummeting sales, (including Toyota and VW etc) but the US ones seem to be in very very serious trouble. I agree with Quinn in that the companies only really have themselves to blame, and their bad decisions in the past, though thats little comfort to the ordinary workers. Very hard times coming I am afraid.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
wildhorses
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:08 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
Galbally;1053617 wrote: I think that the answer in the long term for these companies can only be build better quality, more reliable, more fuel-efficient American cars, and people in the States will undoubtedly buy them. They can do it, they already do it in Europe where they seem to take the competition a bit more seriously; I don't see why they can't do the same thing over there.
The scale of the downturn in the US car industry is quite scary really, all car manufacturers across the world are facing plummeting sales, (including Toyota and VW etc) but the US ones seem to be in very very serious trouble. I agree with Quinn in that the companies only really have themselves to blame, and their bad decisions in the past, though thats little comfort to the ordinary workers. Very hard times coming I am afraid.
Most people dont stay with the same company for life anymore. Many of these company "negotiaters" are now working for someone else or are retired. They knew at the time they signed onto these agreements that they would be gone by the time the chit hit the fan. The mistake that many companies make is to only look at the current bottom line and with not much forsight into the future. When company negotiaters sign onto these agreements, it is usually in lieu of large pay raises. They make promises to pay in the future, in order to pay less now. This, on the surface, looks good to the company as the current bottom line looks good. And no one worries about the future bottom line.
The scale of the downturn in the US car industry is quite scary really, all car manufacturers across the world are facing plummeting sales, (including Toyota and VW etc) but the US ones seem to be in very very serious trouble. I agree with Quinn in that the companies only really have themselves to blame, and their bad decisions in the past, though thats little comfort to the ordinary workers. Very hard times coming I am afraid.
Most people dont stay with the same company for life anymore. Many of these company "negotiaters" are now working for someone else or are retired. They knew at the time they signed onto these agreements that they would be gone by the time the chit hit the fan. The mistake that many companies make is to only look at the current bottom line and with not much forsight into the future. When company negotiaters sign onto these agreements, it is usually in lieu of large pay raises. They make promises to pay in the future, in order to pay less now. This, on the surface, looks good to the company as the current bottom line looks good. And no one worries about the future bottom line.
No Bailout for the Big Three
I find Quinn's "They built up long term liabilities for pensions and medical benefits" rather terrifying in its implications. UK pension law insists that a company's pension payments are made immediately into a ring-fenced account which isn't part of the company's assets and can't be spent either by the company or by creditors if it fails. It's the pension fund. It belongs to the employees, past and present, who built it up. What faith would anyone ever place in their company pension plan if the pension were to be paid from turnover thirty or forty years into the future, which is the only way I can interpret his "long term liabilities for pensions".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
wildhorses
- Posts: 648
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:08 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
spot;1053623 wrote: I find Quinn's "They built up long term liabilities for pensions and medical benefits" rather terrifying in its implications. UK pension law insists that a company's pension payments are made immediately into a ring-fenced account which isn't part of the company's assets and can't be spent either by the company or by creditors if it fails. It's the pension fund. It belongs to the employees, past and present, who built it up. What faith would anyone ever place in their company pension plan if the pension were to be paid from turnover thirty or forty years into the future, which is the only way I can interpret his "long term liabilities for pensions".
They put those pension monies into the stock market...if you can believe that. And the projection at the time of the agreement with the union is based on how much ***they think*** the market will give them off those monies. And, as you know, the stock market can be very unreliable. There is a pension insurace agency that is suppose to back up pensions...but so many are at risk that so is the insurance agency. Sound familiar? No one thinks about building stable foundations anymore. All frosting and no cake....
They put those pension monies into the stock market...if you can believe that. And the projection at the time of the agreement with the union is based on how much ***they think*** the market will give them off those monies. And, as you know, the stock market can be very unreliable. There is a pension insurace agency that is suppose to back up pensions...but so many are at risk that so is the insurance agency. Sound familiar? No one thinks about building stable foundations anymore. All frosting and no cake....
No Bailout for the Big Three
wildhorses;1053462 wrote:
That is exactly how to solve the problem. Buy American. It will cost more, but not much more. This should be done with all products bought by Americans. Support the American Worker. Companies can only outsource jobs if we buy the products they produce. Reward the companies who keep jobs here and punish the companies that send jobs overseas.
OK....OK.....I am agreeeing with Quinn again.
Won't solve the problem all it does is postpone the inevitable. European car manufacturers were in the same state 20-30 years ago. The british car industry basically died the death because they kept trying to prop up a failed business and deluded themselves people would always buy british just because it was british even if it was total rubbish. Now European manufacturers are on the up again-even buying in to japanese companies now. Competition is a good thing all that's wrong with the big three is they have convinced themselves America owes them a living. In the UK you can buy an american made chrysler caliber-buy one get one free. That's how bad they are in comparison to the competition. My wife drives a chevrolet-one made in korea and actually quite good.
You need to stop feeling sorry for yourselves and stop bleating about unfair competition. Start making stuff as good as the competition and accept that some businesses will disappear. GM chrysler and ford europe are doing rather well.
Support the American Worker.
Toyota and honda and volkswagon all manufacture in the states do they not? What have you got against buying their product.
That is exactly how to solve the problem. Buy American. It will cost more, but not much more. This should be done with all products bought by Americans. Support the American Worker. Companies can only outsource jobs if we buy the products they produce. Reward the companies who keep jobs here and punish the companies that send jobs overseas.
OK....OK.....I am agreeeing with Quinn again.
Won't solve the problem all it does is postpone the inevitable. European car manufacturers were in the same state 20-30 years ago. The british car industry basically died the death because they kept trying to prop up a failed business and deluded themselves people would always buy british just because it was british even if it was total rubbish. Now European manufacturers are on the up again-even buying in to japanese companies now. Competition is a good thing all that's wrong with the big three is they have convinced themselves America owes them a living. In the UK you can buy an american made chrysler caliber-buy one get one free. That's how bad they are in comparison to the competition. My wife drives a chevrolet-one made in korea and actually quite good.
You need to stop feeling sorry for yourselves and stop bleating about unfair competition. Start making stuff as good as the competition and accept that some businesses will disappear. GM chrysler and ford europe are doing rather well.
Support the American Worker.
Toyota and honda and volkswagon all manufacture in the states do they not? What have you got against buying their product.
No Bailout for the Big Three
'we seem to be doing quite well with what we have been buying. Take a stroll in any parking lot and count the foreign made cars. '
This comment is not entirely accurate. The cars you are talking about may be owned by foreign companies, but it does not meant that they are ‘foreign made’. Honda has 3 plants in America, two in Ohio and one in Alabama. Toyota has plants in Georgetown, Kentucky; Fremont, California; Princeton, Indiana; and employs in North America (including Canada & Mexico) over 10,000 people.
Don’t’ be so quick to try to go back to the old early 1980’s slogans of ‘buy American made cars’ these cars are every bit as American made as Ford, just different owners, but the jobs they create are just as important.
This comment is not entirely accurate. The cars you are talking about may be owned by foreign companies, but it does not meant that they are ‘foreign made’. Honda has 3 plants in America, two in Ohio and one in Alabama. Toyota has plants in Georgetown, Kentucky; Fremont, California; Princeton, Indiana; and employs in North America (including Canada & Mexico) over 10,000 people.
Don’t’ be so quick to try to go back to the old early 1980’s slogans of ‘buy American made cars’ these cars are every bit as American made as Ford, just different owners, but the jobs they create are just as important.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
No Bailout for the Big Three
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1053385 wrote: If you are inclined to be sympathetic to the auto industry, the answer is simple; Americans should not buy any car not made by GM, Chrysler and Ford¦problem solved.
wildhorses;1053462 wrote:
That is exactly how to solve the problem. Buy American. It will cost more, but not much more. This should be done with all products bought by Americans. Support the American Worker. Companies can only outsource jobs if we buy the products they produce. Reward the companies who keep jobs here and punish the companies that send jobs overseas.
OK....OK.....I am agreeeing with Quinn again.Not sure if it's good news or bad, but you actually disagree.
I don't see how the big three can survive with the union contract bleeding off more than makes sense. I believe I read or heard somewhere that GM makes most of their money overseas now.
If the workers can't see that their own unions are jeopardizing their livlihoods now, regardless of how good and useful they were in the past, then I believe Detroit is in for its own great depression.
wildhorses;1053462 wrote:
That is exactly how to solve the problem. Buy American. It will cost more, but not much more. This should be done with all products bought by Americans. Support the American Worker. Companies can only outsource jobs if we buy the products they produce. Reward the companies who keep jobs here and punish the companies that send jobs overseas.
OK....OK.....I am agreeeing with Quinn again.Not sure if it's good news or bad, but you actually disagree.
I don't see how the big three can survive with the union contract bleeding off more than makes sense. I believe I read or heard somewhere that GM makes most of their money overseas now.
If the workers can't see that their own unions are jeopardizing their livlihoods now, regardless of how good and useful they were in the past, then I believe Detroit is in for its own great depression.
-
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
LilacDragon;1053582 wrote: I live in Michigan and while I don't work for an auto company, I really don't want to see them go belly up.
I work for a small company and I get a crappy paycheck, but a paycheck non the less. I don't have health insurance because it would cost me more then one third of what I make in a month. I don't have any kind of retirement plan because - on the $1,300 I make a month, it is hard to pay all the bills, keep gas in the car and buy groceries.
DH had a job with a company that made car parts. He was laid off just before his unit was notified that it was being redeployed to Iraq. This means that right after Christmas, he will be looking for a job. There aren't any.
Michigan's unemployment rate - as of October - was 8.7%. If the auto companies go out of business that rate will climb to well over 10%. The impact is going to effect everyone in the state whether they work for one of the big three or not. Small businesses that are just barely hanging on now will disappear as people have no money to use their services. Our children who are graduating for college will be going to other states to find jobs.
I don't like the Big 3. I don't think that any of them have made the kind of decisions necessary to sustain long term growth and solvency. But the damage that will be done to areas that are supported by the industry and those who work within the industry is going to be just devastating.
And yes - I drive a Chevy.
But the point is they won't go out of business, bankruptcy does not mean going out of business, it means restructuring and reorganizing which is what they should have done 20 years ago.
I work for a small company and I get a crappy paycheck, but a paycheck non the less. I don't have health insurance because it would cost me more then one third of what I make in a month. I don't have any kind of retirement plan because - on the $1,300 I make a month, it is hard to pay all the bills, keep gas in the car and buy groceries.
DH had a job with a company that made car parts. He was laid off just before his unit was notified that it was being redeployed to Iraq. This means that right after Christmas, he will be looking for a job. There aren't any.
Michigan's unemployment rate - as of October - was 8.7%. If the auto companies go out of business that rate will climb to well over 10%. The impact is going to effect everyone in the state whether they work for one of the big three or not. Small businesses that are just barely hanging on now will disappear as people have no money to use their services. Our children who are graduating for college will be going to other states to find jobs.
I don't like the Big 3. I don't think that any of them have made the kind of decisions necessary to sustain long term growth and solvency. But the damage that will be done to areas that are supported by the industry and those who work within the industry is going to be just devastating.
And yes - I drive a Chevy.
But the point is they won't go out of business, bankruptcy does not mean going out of business, it means restructuring and reorganizing which is what they should have done 20 years ago.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
-
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
wildhorses;1053621 wrote: Most people dont stay with the same company for life anymore. Many of these company "negotiaters" are now working for someone else or are retired. They knew at the time they signed onto these agreements that they would be gone by the time the chit hit the fan. The mistake that many companies make is to only look at the current bottom line and with not much forsight into the future. When company negotiaters sign onto these agreements, it is usually in lieu of large pay raises. They make promises to pay in the future, in order to pay less now. This, on the surface, looks good to the company as the current bottom line looks good. And no one worries about the future bottom line.
And now, I agree with you 100%, companies and unions are short-sighted and only interested in getting the next contract signed...hey just like politicians!
I worked for the same company for 47 years and for the last 30 I negotiated all union agreements and I lived with those agreements year after year and in 1995 we began a restructuring of benefits that only affected people hired after that date. The unions balked but agreed and today the hundreds of millions saved over the years are now saving jobs and avoiding layoffs because the company is in much better shape that it otherwise would be. The real credit goes to forward thinking union leaders who would rather have kept the rich programs of the 1950s but understood the unfortunate need for change.
And now, I agree with you 100%, companies and unions are short-sighted and only interested in getting the next contract signed...hey just like politicians!
I worked for the same company for 47 years and for the last 30 I negotiated all union agreements and I lived with those agreements year after year and in 1995 we began a restructuring of benefits that only affected people hired after that date. The unions balked but agreed and today the hundreds of millions saved over the years are now saving jobs and avoiding layoffs because the company is in much better shape that it otherwise would be. The real credit goes to forward thinking union leaders who would rather have kept the rich programs of the 1950s but understood the unfortunate need for change.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
No Bailout for the Big Three
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1053794 wrote: But the point is they won't go out of business, bankruptcy does not mean going out of business, it means restructuring and reorganizing which is what they should have done 20 years ago.
Does it not mean reneging on debt? Including, by the look of what you posted, pension commitments to ex-workers? I may, of course, have mis-read your information.
Does it not mean reneging on debt? Including, by the look of what you posted, pension commitments to ex-workers? I may, of course, have mis-read your information.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
spot;1053623 wrote: I find Quinn's "They built up long term liabilities for pensions and medical benefits" rather terrifying in its implications. UK pension law insists that a company's pension payments are made immediately into a ring-fenced account which isn't part of the company's assets and can't be spent either by the company or by creditors if it fails. It's the pension fund. It belongs to the employees, past and present, who built it up. What faith would anyone ever place in their company pension plan if the pension were to be paid from turnover thirty or forty years into the future, which is the only way I can interpret his "long term liabilities for pensions".
US law requires that pension plans be adequately funded and the money be placed in trusts only for that purpose. US companies routinely ignore the funding requirements and get away with it while improving benefits that in some cases end up being turned over the the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation which ends up paying a least a portion of the benefit accrued, the rest is lost if the funding is inadequate.
In the last round of concession by the UAW they agreed to take over the retiree medical plans and liability in return for the auto makers to give them most of the funding upfront, the first $7 billion payment has yet to be made so the benefits for hundreds of thousands of retirees (with very rich and mostly free benefits) are in real jeopardy.
US law requires that pension plans be adequately funded and the money be placed in trusts only for that purpose. US companies routinely ignore the funding requirements and get away with it while improving benefits that in some cases end up being turned over the the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation which ends up paying a least a portion of the benefit accrued, the rest is lost if the funding is inadequate.
In the last round of concession by the UAW they agreed to take over the retiree medical plans and liability in return for the auto makers to give them most of the funding upfront, the first $7 billion payment has yet to be made so the benefits for hundreds of thousands of retirees (with very rich and mostly free benefits) are in real jeopardy.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
-
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
No Bailout for the Big Three
spot;1053797 wrote: Does it not mean reneging on debt? Including, by the look of what you posted, pension commitments to ex-workers? I may, of course, have mis-read your information.
It does mean reneging on debt at least partially, but see my other post regarding pensions, they should already be funded (but aren't fully) and so the obligation gets turned over the the federal government. Lower paid workers are generally safe, but anyone with an earned pension about the limit insured is in trouble. The maximum insured amount is about $48,000 a year.
It does mean reneging on debt at least partially, but see my other post regarding pensions, they should already be funded (but aren't fully) and so the obligation gets turned over the the federal government. Lower paid workers are generally safe, but anyone with an earned pension about the limit insured is in trouble. The maximum insured amount is about $48,000 a year.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog