At first hand, it sounds a good move move for Obama to close Guantanamo.
Far reaching questions include:
If all in-mates are to be held or tried by a court in the USA, will they get a fair trial based on allegations of many being innocent?
What of In-mates from other countrie's including the Uk?
Will they want them back?
What sort of trial would they get once back on their own soil?
If tried in the USA, is this right to try our people?
Obama to fulfil promise and shut Guantanamo - Americas, World - The Independent
How will this affect the Bush legacy of 'War on Terror'?
Obama to close Guantanamo
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
Obama to close Guantanamo
oscar;1068312 wrote: At first hand, it sounds a good move move for Obama to close Guantanamo.
Far reaching questions include:
If all in-mates are to be held or tried by a court in the USA, will they get a fair trial based on allegations of many being innocent?
What of In-mates from other countrie's including the Uk?
Will they want them back?
What sort of trial would they get once back on their own soil?
If tried in the USA, is this right to try our people?
Obama to fulfil promise and shut Guantanamo - Americas, World - The Independent
How will this affect the Bush legacy of 'War on Terror'?
If they are in Guantanamo, it's a fair bet they are pretty bad guys who hate our guts. If you want them you can have them.
It sounds really good this treat them fairly stuff, end the so called abuse and all that, but unfortunately in our quest for civil liberty we forget we are dealing with people who have no ability to even comprehend that concept, people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics.
Reluctantly I question how we can apply our standards of civil justice to these people and still survive.
Far reaching questions include:
If all in-mates are to be held or tried by a court in the USA, will they get a fair trial based on allegations of many being innocent?
What of In-mates from other countrie's including the Uk?
Will they want them back?
What sort of trial would they get once back on their own soil?
If tried in the USA, is this right to try our people?
Obama to fulfil promise and shut Guantanamo - Americas, World - The Independent
How will this affect the Bush legacy of 'War on Terror'?
If they are in Guantanamo, it's a fair bet they are pretty bad guys who hate our guts. If you want them you can have them.
It sounds really good this treat them fairly stuff, end the so called abuse and all that, but unfortunately in our quest for civil liberty we forget we are dealing with people who have no ability to even comprehend that concept, people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics.
Reluctantly I question how we can apply our standards of civil justice to these people and still survive.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
Obama to close Guantanamo
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1068617 wrote: Reluctantly I question how we can apply our standards of civil justice to these people and still survive.In what possible way can they make you extinct (or, if it's a better antonym, destroy you)?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Obama to close Guantanamo
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1068617 wrote: If they are in Guantanamo, it's a fair bet they are pretty bad guys who hate our guts. If you want them you can have them.
It sounds really good this treat them fairly stuff, end the so called abuse and all that, but unfortunately in our quest for civil liberty we forget we are dealing with people who have no ability to even comprehend that concept, people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics.
Reluctantly I question how we can apply our standards of civil justice to these people and still survive.
How do you know you are dealing with people like that and have them incarcerated in guantanamo bay? who told you they were guilty?
The thing is giving a fair trial and applying your standards of civil justice to "these people" is not about their freedom it is about yours. The right to freedom from arrest without trial is the most basic human right. If you deny it to others or even worse give your government the right to decide who is guilty and who is not without trial then you are no longer in a free country but a police state. You seem to value your freedom very lightly. welcome to fascist america.
It sounds really good this treat them fairly stuff, end the so called abuse and all that, but unfortunately in our quest for civil liberty we forget we are dealing with people who have no ability to even comprehend that concept, people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics.
Reluctantly I question how we can apply our standards of civil justice to these people and still survive.
How do you know you are dealing with people like that and have them incarcerated in guantanamo bay? who told you they were guilty?
The thing is giving a fair trial and applying your standards of civil justice to "these people" is not about their freedom it is about yours. The right to freedom from arrest without trial is the most basic human right. If you deny it to others or even worse give your government the right to decide who is guilty and who is not without trial then you are no longer in a free country but a police state. You seem to value your freedom very lightly. welcome to fascist america.
Obama to close Guantanamo
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1068617 wrote: If they are in Guantanamo, it's a fair bet they are pretty bad guys who hate our guts. If you want them you can have them.
It sounds really good this treat them fairly stuff, end the so called abuse and all that, but unfortunately in our quest for civil liberty we forget we are dealing with people who have no ability to even comprehend that concept, people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics.
Reluctantly I question how we can apply our standards of civil justice to these people and still survive.
If there is any evidence to show that then bring them to trial and prove it. If you don't have the evidence then pay them compensation for wrongful imprisonment and send them home.
Until you prove that these are people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics all you are proving is that the USA has no Civil Justice and is a terrorist state that kidnaps people from around the world and keeps them in inhumane conditions which breach the Geneva Convention.
It's a case of put up or shut up and it is doing untold damage to the US - the sooner it's resolved the sooner we can start repairing the damage.
It sounds really good this treat them fairly stuff, end the so called abuse and all that, but unfortunately in our quest for civil liberty we forget we are dealing with people who have no ability to even comprehend that concept, people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics.
Reluctantly I question how we can apply our standards of civil justice to these people and still survive.
If there is any evidence to show that then bring them to trial and prove it. If you don't have the evidence then pay them compensation for wrongful imprisonment and send them home.
Until you prove that these are people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics all you are proving is that the USA has no Civil Justice and is a terrorist state that kidnaps people from around the world and keeps them in inhumane conditions which breach the Geneva Convention.
It's a case of put up or shut up and it is doing untold damage to the US - the sooner it's resolved the sooner we can start repairing the damage.
Obama to close Guantanamo
jimbo;1068632 wrote: if we dont give others the justice that we fight to protect then we are no better than them 
you cant have justice for some then inprison others who may be innocent just coz you dont like the look of them
the democrocy that i would fight to protect just dont work like that
ooops jimbo enters a normal thread .... backs away to go annoy chezzer
:o
Very well put :-6
you cant have justice for some then inprison others who may be innocent just coz you dont like the look of them
the democrocy that i would fight to protect just dont work like that
ooops jimbo enters a normal thread .... backs away to go annoy chezzer
:oVery well put :-6
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
Bryn Mawr;1068732 wrote: If there is any evidence to show that then bring them to trial and prove it. If you don't have the evidence then pay them compensation for wrongful imprisonment and send them home.
Until you prove that these are people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics all you are proving is that the USA has no Civil Justice and is a terrorist state that kidnaps people from around the world and keeps them in inhumane conditions which breach the Geneva Convention.
It's a case of put up or shut up and it is doing untold damage to the US - the sooner it's resolved the sooner we can start repairing the damage.
Without googling, I believe the UK government did already successfully free UK prisoners from Guantanamo and bring them home in the past. If my memory is correct, i don't remember there being too much evidence against them. I will have to google but was the 'Shoe bomber' one of them?
There is no doubt in my mind that Guantanamo is the most shameful acts of the Bush legacy. It needs to be put right. I don't believe that practices there even meet 'The Geneva Convention'.
There is probably no doubt, some of the in-mates are a danger to Western security but it is alleged that many are simply goat shepherds rounded up in Afghanistan and Pakistan without any hard evidence against them.
My concern is, if this is the legacy of the Bush regime, by closing Guantanamo, Obama will take foriegn nationals including Uk and try them on American soil. Can we there-fore had the faith that they will get a fair trial and not be tried as 'just another terrorist' and spend the rest of their lives in a US high maximum prison?
Until you prove that these are people who blow up anyone at any time, who stone women, who teach children to hate in their school books, who abuse their own people and who are religious fanatics all you are proving is that the USA has no Civil Justice and is a terrorist state that kidnaps people from around the world and keeps them in inhumane conditions which breach the Geneva Convention.
It's a case of put up or shut up and it is doing untold damage to the US - the sooner it's resolved the sooner we can start repairing the damage.
Without googling, I believe the UK government did already successfully free UK prisoners from Guantanamo and bring them home in the past. If my memory is correct, i don't remember there being too much evidence against them. I will have to google but was the 'Shoe bomber' one of them?
There is no doubt in my mind that Guantanamo is the most shameful acts of the Bush legacy. It needs to be put right. I don't believe that practices there even meet 'The Geneva Convention'.
There is probably no doubt, some of the in-mates are a danger to Western security but it is alleged that many are simply goat shepherds rounded up in Afghanistan and Pakistan without any hard evidence against them.
My concern is, if this is the legacy of the Bush regime, by closing Guantanamo, Obama will take foriegn nationals including Uk and try them on American soil. Can we there-fore had the faith that they will get a fair trial and not be tried as 'just another terrorist' and spend the rest of their lives in a US high maximum prison?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Obama to close Guantanamo
oscar;1068867 wrote: Without googling, I believe the UK government did already successfully free UK prisoners from Guantanamo and bring them home in the past. If my memory is correct, i don't remember there being too much evidence against them. I will have to google but was the 'Shoe bomber' one of them?
There is no doubt in my mind that Guantanamo is the most shameful acts of the Bush legacy. It needs to be put right. I don't believe that practices there even meet 'The Geneva Convention'.
There is probably no doubt, some of the in-mates are a danger to Western security but it is alleged that many are simply goat shepherds rounded up in Afghanistan and Pakistan without any hard evidence against them.
My concern is, if this is the legacy of the Bush regime, by closing Guantanamo, Obama will take foriegn nationals including Uk and try them on American soil. Can we there-fore had the faith that they will get a fair trial and not be tried as 'just another terrorist' and spend the rest of their lives in a US high maximum prison?
No, Peter Ried was not one of them - the four who were brought back to Britain had their cases reviewed here and no evidence could be found against them so they were released.
For them to be tried in an American court and found guilty would be a major step forward - at least they would be in the justice system with evidence laid out in public to be accepted or appealed. For them to be held in inhumane conditions without trial is totally unacceptable in a civilised world - never let the US government complain again if one of her citizens is kidnapped and held captive, it's no more than they claim the right to do themselves.
There is no doubt in my mind that Guantanamo is the most shameful acts of the Bush legacy. It needs to be put right. I don't believe that practices there even meet 'The Geneva Convention'.
There is probably no doubt, some of the in-mates are a danger to Western security but it is alleged that many are simply goat shepherds rounded up in Afghanistan and Pakistan without any hard evidence against them.
My concern is, if this is the legacy of the Bush regime, by closing Guantanamo, Obama will take foriegn nationals including Uk and try them on American soil. Can we there-fore had the faith that they will get a fair trial and not be tried as 'just another terrorist' and spend the rest of their lives in a US high maximum prison?
No, Peter Ried was not one of them - the four who were brought back to Britain had their cases reviewed here and no evidence could be found against them so they were released.
For them to be tried in an American court and found guilty would be a major step forward - at least they would be in the justice system with evidence laid out in public to be accepted or appealed. For them to be held in inhumane conditions without trial is totally unacceptable in a civilised world - never let the US government complain again if one of her citizens is kidnapped and held captive, it's no more than they claim the right to do themselves.
Obama to close Guantanamo
oscar;1068867 wrote: Without googling, I believe the UK government did already successfully free UK prisoners from Guantanamo and bring them home in the past. If my memory is correct, i don't remember there being too much evidence against them. I will have to google but was the 'Shoe bomber' one of them?
There is no doubt in my mind that Guantanamo is the most shameful acts of the Bush legacy. It needs to be put right. I don't believe that practices there even meet 'The Geneva Convention'.
There is probably no doubt, some of the in-mates are a danger to Western security but it is alleged that many are simply goat shepherds rounded up in Afghanistan and Pakistan without any hard evidence against them.
My concern is, if this is the legacy of the Bush regime, by closing Guantanamo, Obama will take foriegn nationals including Uk and try them on American soil. Can we there-fore had the faith that they will get a fair trial and not be tried as 'just another terrorist' and spend the rest of their lives in a US high maximum prison?
Your wonderful gordon brown signed up to an extradition treaty with the states that their congress initially refused to ratify (good grief it meant we might ask for IRA terrorists to be handed over and everyone knows they wouldn't get a fair trial in the UK) but which we honour so you have british citizens being handed over to the states to stand trial for things which are not actually illegal in the UK. If he had any integrity he would resign. But no he spent too long holding TB's coat to take the chance he night get booted out.
Statewatch News online: New UK-US Extradition Treaty (Special report no 2)
There is no doubt in my mind that Guantanamo is the most shameful acts of the Bush legacy. It needs to be put right. I don't believe that practices there even meet 'The Geneva Convention'.
There is probably no doubt, some of the in-mates are a danger to Western security but it is alleged that many are simply goat shepherds rounded up in Afghanistan and Pakistan without any hard evidence against them.
My concern is, if this is the legacy of the Bush regime, by closing Guantanamo, Obama will take foriegn nationals including Uk and try them on American soil. Can we there-fore had the faith that they will get a fair trial and not be tried as 'just another terrorist' and spend the rest of their lives in a US high maximum prison?
Your wonderful gordon brown signed up to an extradition treaty with the states that their congress initially refused to ratify (good grief it meant we might ask for IRA terrorists to be handed over and everyone knows they wouldn't get a fair trial in the UK) but which we honour so you have british citizens being handed over to the states to stand trial for things which are not actually illegal in the UK. If he had any integrity he would resign. But no he spent too long holding TB's coat to take the chance he night get booted out.
Statewatch News online: New UK-US Extradition Treaty (Special report no 2)
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
gmc;1069158 wrote: Your wonderful gordon brown signed up to an extradition treaty with the states that their congress initially refused to ratify (good grief it meant we might ask for IRA terrorists to be handed over and everyone knows they wouldn't get a fair trial in the UK) but which we honour so you have british citizens being handed over to the states to stand trial for things which are not actually illegal in the UK. If he had any integrity he would resign. But no he spent too long holding TB's coat to take the chance he night get booted out.
Statewatch News online: New UK-US Extradition Treaty (Special report no 2)
It was also the British government who successfully got UK in-mates out of Guantanamo and as Bryn said, little evidence on them came about.
Would you question the extradition of 'Abu Hamza' to the US on International Terrorism Charges as the US claim he is linked to 9/11? You can't have a treaty with one rule for one and one for another. You Scottish twerp.
Statewatch News online: New UK-US Extradition Treaty (Special report no 2)
It was also the British government who successfully got UK in-mates out of Guantanamo and as Bryn said, little evidence on them came about.
Would you question the extradition of 'Abu Hamza' to the US on International Terrorism Charges as the US claim he is linked to 9/11? You can't have a treaty with one rule for one and one for another. You Scottish twerp.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Obama to close Guantanamo
oscar;1069269 wrote: It was also the British government who successfully got UK in-mates out of Guantanamo and as Bryn said, little evidence on them came about.
Would you question the extradition of 'Abu Hamza' to the US on International Terrorism Charges as the US claim he is linked to 9/11? You can't have a treaty with one rule for one and one for another. You Scottish twerp.
They shouldn't have been imprisoned without trial. If abu hamza is linked to 911 then let them prove it. Same with anyone the US want to be extradited. Just because the US claim a terrorist connection doesn't mean there is. (remember Iraq) Everyone has the right to a fair trial no matter what they are accused off. As soon as you give govt the right to decide who is or is not guilty you are no longer free. Even worse if it is a foreign government.
They are also using it to try and extradite people who have committed no offence at all.
The Howes family: by Billy Briggs and John Bynorth « UK Citizens Extradition Fight
But federal prosecutors at the Drug Enforcement Agency in Arizona allege they were part of a drugs racket supplying a global network of meth labs in the United States, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and other countries.
Iodine and red phosphorus were just two of about 60 substances the Howeses offered for sale.
The couple insist that red phosphorus is often bought by amateur fireworks fans, and that the iodine they supplied was marked for medical use. Both chemicals are perfectly legal in the UK, but are strictly controlled by the US.
Howes denied that any of his products were intended for underground crystal meth manufacturing labs. He said: “We were in a legitimate business registered with the Home Office and the Health and Safety Executive.
Guess who gave them the export licence? Do you really think they are going to get a fair trial? We should tell he americans to bugger off.
'I'm terrified my son dies in US jail' - Scotsman.com News
The hacker had been warned by the US authorities that he faced a life sentence rather than a couple of years in jail unless he agreed to plead guilty and accept extradition. Without his co-operation, the authorities said, the case could be treated as one of terrorism. It has been reported that US prosecutors wanted to "see him fry".
Plenty of other examples if you care to take a few minutes to look.
You can't have a treaty with one rule for one and one for another. You Scottish twer
That was rather my point you daily mail reader you. We just hand them over for no good reason but have they handed across a single one of the ones we want. No of course not. Would we hand them across to say an arab country to be imprisoned without a fair trial? No but we let america away with it.
Would you question the extradition of 'Abu Hamza' to the US on International Terrorism Charges as the US claim he is linked to 9/11? You can't have a treaty with one rule for one and one for another. You Scottish twerp.
They shouldn't have been imprisoned without trial. If abu hamza is linked to 911 then let them prove it. Same with anyone the US want to be extradited. Just because the US claim a terrorist connection doesn't mean there is. (remember Iraq) Everyone has the right to a fair trial no matter what they are accused off. As soon as you give govt the right to decide who is or is not guilty you are no longer free. Even worse if it is a foreign government.
They are also using it to try and extradite people who have committed no offence at all.
The Howes family: by Billy Briggs and John Bynorth « UK Citizens Extradition Fight
But federal prosecutors at the Drug Enforcement Agency in Arizona allege they were part of a drugs racket supplying a global network of meth labs in the United States, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and other countries.
Iodine and red phosphorus were just two of about 60 substances the Howeses offered for sale.
The couple insist that red phosphorus is often bought by amateur fireworks fans, and that the iodine they supplied was marked for medical use. Both chemicals are perfectly legal in the UK, but are strictly controlled by the US.
Howes denied that any of his products were intended for underground crystal meth manufacturing labs. He said: “We were in a legitimate business registered with the Home Office and the Health and Safety Executive.
Guess who gave them the export licence? Do you really think they are going to get a fair trial? We should tell he americans to bugger off.
'I'm terrified my son dies in US jail' - Scotsman.com News
The hacker had been warned by the US authorities that he faced a life sentence rather than a couple of years in jail unless he agreed to plead guilty and accept extradition. Without his co-operation, the authorities said, the case could be treated as one of terrorism. It has been reported that US prosecutors wanted to "see him fry".
Plenty of other examples if you care to take a few minutes to look.
You can't have a treaty with one rule for one and one for another. You Scottish twer
That was rather my point you daily mail reader you. We just hand them over for no good reason but have they handed across a single one of the ones we want. No of course not. Would we hand them across to say an arab country to be imprisoned without a fair trial? No but we let america away with it.
Obama to close Guantanamo
oscar;1069269 wrote: It was also the British government who successfully got UK in-mates out of Guantanamo and as Bryn said, little evidence on them came about.
Would you question the extradition of 'Abu Hamza' to the US on International Terrorism Charges as the US claim he is linked to 9/11? You can't have a treaty with one rule for one and one for another. You Scottish twerp.
No, but I'd question the extradition of the poor sod who hacked into the Pentagon computers in search of UFO data - probable life to cover corporate incompetence.
Would you question the extradition of 'Abu Hamza' to the US on International Terrorism Charges as the US claim he is linked to 9/11? You can't have a treaty with one rule for one and one for another. You Scottish twerp.
No, but I'd question the extradition of the poor sod who hacked into the Pentagon computers in search of UFO data - probable life to cover corporate incompetence.
Obama to close Guantanamo
I have no comment of my own about Guantanamo, but would like to draw attention to the totally opposing positions taken by the site joker (sorry Jimbo) and the site sage Quinnscommentary.
Being the most powerful nation on earth, America seems to believe 'Might is right,' rather than 'Right is might' apparently proving the old adage 'Power corrupts, total power corrupts totally'
Being the most powerful nation on earth, America seems to believe 'Might is right,' rather than 'Right is might' apparently proving the old adage 'Power corrupts, total power corrupts totally'
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
Bryn Mawr;1069739 wrote: No, but I'd question the extradition of the poor sod who hacked into the Pentagon computers in search of UFO data - probable life to cover corporate incompetence.I have to agree with you Bryn. I was going to mention him earlier but couldn't for the life of me remember his name. I just remembered him from a head line calling him the computer 'geek'.
It was totally wrong to just hand him him over, there were no indications to show he had any terrorist activity, if anything, from what i read, he was a little sad man who sat up all night looking for evidence of ufo or aliens by hacking into Nassa. I never got the impression that he was a danger to national security in the US.
No, i think we could have done him a far better service, i must agree.
It was totally wrong to just hand him him over, there were no indications to show he had any terrorist activity, if anything, from what i read, he was a little sad man who sat up all night looking for evidence of ufo or aliens by hacking into Nassa. I never got the impression that he was a danger to national security in the US.
No, i think we could have done him a far better service, i must agree.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1069916 wrote: They can face a firing squad for all I care, one after another, we should then dump thier bodies over the coutnty they claim as thier origin.
Then refurbish Gitmo for the next wave.
and by that mass murder you would prove that the US is a terrorist state.
To be Justice it must be seen to be just.
Kidnapping people from other countries and holding them without trial is totally unacceptable behaviour - to kill those people without trial would be barbaric.
Then refurbish Gitmo for the next wave.
and by that mass murder you would prove that the US is a terrorist state.
To be Justice it must be seen to be just.
Kidnapping people from other countries and holding them without trial is totally unacceptable behaviour - to kill those people without trial would be barbaric.
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1069916 wrote: They can face a firing squad for all I care, one after another, we should then dump thier bodies over the coutnty they claim as thier origin.
Then refurbish Gitmo for the next wave.
Has it ever occurred to you that you and the islamic fundamentalists have similar concepts of what constitutes justice and the best way to run a country?
Then refurbish Gitmo for the next wave.
Has it ever occurred to you that you and the islamic fundamentalists have similar concepts of what constitutes justice and the best way to run a country?
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1069916 wrote: They can face a firing squad for all I care, one after another, we should then dump thier bodies over the coutnty they claim as thier origin.
Then refurbish Gitmo for the next wave.
Congratulations Jester, you have just achieved something that many have tried for many years... You have just rendered me speechless!
Then refurbish Gitmo for the next wave.
Congratulations Jester, you have just achieved something that many have tried for many years... You have just rendered me speechless!
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
jimbo;1070056 wrote: if just one of us is denied justice it means none of us are truly free
Well said Jimbo. Or as they say in muslim 'Yanni'!
You only have to look at the one's the british government successfully got out of there. There was no evidence against them after all???
One question for Jester........... Is there any American's incarcerated in there?
Well said Jimbo. Or as they say in muslim 'Yanni'!
You only have to look at the one's the british government successfully got out of there. There was no evidence against them after all???
One question for Jester........... Is there any American's incarcerated in there?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1070064 wrote: Jimbo you are way over in the UK and as far as I know have not taken up arms agasint the common person of the west or some innocent person in your own coutnry, it has nothing to do with YOUR freedom.
I beg to differ Jester. Global war on terror affects us all. We also had people in the twin towers. We had the London Tube bombings by Al-Qaeda, we had Bristish killed by Al-Quaeda in Bali. they are as close to us as they are America. We have troops being blown up in Iraq, Afghanistan and other trouble spots.
It is not America's war. If it were, you'd be on your own every where.
Please don't talk to the British about not knowing what war is or fighting. You have no idea of my familie's war history nor any-one elses's over here.
My father suffered all his life beacuse of war.
I beg to differ Jester. Global war on terror affects us all. We also had people in the twin towers. We had the London Tube bombings by Al-Qaeda, we had Bristish killed by Al-Quaeda in Bali. they are as close to us as they are America. We have troops being blown up in Iraq, Afghanistan and other trouble spots.
It is not America's war. If it were, you'd be on your own every where.
Please don't talk to the British about not knowing what war is or fighting. You have no idea of my familie's war history nor any-one elses's over here.
My father suffered all his life beacuse of war.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1070064 wrote: Jimbo you are way over in the UK and as far as I know have not taken up arms agasint the common person of the west or some innocent person in your own coutnry, it has nothing to do with YOUR freedom.
It has everything to do with your freedom in the united states. You have allowed your government to imprison people without trial and are happy to accept that anyone accused of terrorism must, by the fact of being accused, therefore be guilty. One of the most essential rights you have is the right not to be arrested without trial and the right to face your accuser. If you think it doesn't matter then I hope for your sake none of your neighbours accuse you of any wrong doing, at the very least you would no doubt expect a chance to defend yourself in court.
You also apparently think it's all right for your government to abrogate international treaties on the treatment of prisoners of war on the grounds that they are not proper combatants. You can't have it both ways. They are either prisoner of war in which case entitled to proper treatment such as not being tortured-or they are terrorists in which case you need to bring them to trial. Just to lock them up so you can torture them in privacy does america little credit. Even less that you wouldn't dare do it to an american citizen. it galls that the likes of the British government let you do it to our nationals. We should have told you to f--k off in no uncertain terms and kept our troops out of iraq.
The war on terror is not against nation states. Nor is it new it's been going on for decades just because the states has suffered one attack in recent times doesn't make it a new problem. It's irritating hearing americans preach about a war on terror. there are plenty of UK, german, spanish, french, russian law enforcement agencies and troops that have been fighting terrorists for decades. In the case of the IRA having them funded by the americans and lauded as freedom fighters was always rather a sore point.
Were you perchance involved in training the mujahadeen in guerrilla warfare against the russians? Don't answer that, but the irony of british troops facing people the british and americans helped train in warfare is well understood in this country. Might have been better to back up the russians.
posted by jester
I ackowledge all those things dear, what Im saying is that what we do with those prosioners of war does not affect Jimbos freedom in any way. That has nothing to do with the sacrifices of the honorable fighters of the countries of the world who have helped stop terrorism.
It does affect us because it is that kind of behaviour that does a great deal to win the extremists more and more support. This is not the middle ages, you are not about some great crusade to defend your religion nor are we protected by the sacrifice of honourable fighters in some demented medieval war game gallantly going off to war. Most people in this country care very much what happens to our soldiers and are angry at a government that get them involved in warfare when wars should only be fought as a last resort. They care because the soldiers getting killed or are at risk are not strangers. Most of the british posters probably know someone who is in the armed forces if not directly then indirectly. Poppy day at my wife's school was remarkable as so many of the kids wanted to do something because a lot of the layabout teenagers know other layabout teenagers who have joined up since leaving school and are actually involved in all of this.
Bush was an idiot that seized on a terrorist attack to pursue an agenda that had nothing to do with combating terrorism. Had McCain won it would have had osama bin laden and his ilk jumping for joy more of the same policy would have got them more and more support.
Closing Guantanamo Bay is metaphorically reclaiming the moral high ground. If you stay in the morass of cast away high ideals then you will lose.
It has everything to do with your freedom in the united states. You have allowed your government to imprison people without trial and are happy to accept that anyone accused of terrorism must, by the fact of being accused, therefore be guilty. One of the most essential rights you have is the right not to be arrested without trial and the right to face your accuser. If you think it doesn't matter then I hope for your sake none of your neighbours accuse you of any wrong doing, at the very least you would no doubt expect a chance to defend yourself in court.
You also apparently think it's all right for your government to abrogate international treaties on the treatment of prisoners of war on the grounds that they are not proper combatants. You can't have it both ways. They are either prisoner of war in which case entitled to proper treatment such as not being tortured-or they are terrorists in which case you need to bring them to trial. Just to lock them up so you can torture them in privacy does america little credit. Even less that you wouldn't dare do it to an american citizen. it galls that the likes of the British government let you do it to our nationals. We should have told you to f--k off in no uncertain terms and kept our troops out of iraq.
The war on terror is not against nation states. Nor is it new it's been going on for decades just because the states has suffered one attack in recent times doesn't make it a new problem. It's irritating hearing americans preach about a war on terror. there are plenty of UK, german, spanish, french, russian law enforcement agencies and troops that have been fighting terrorists for decades. In the case of the IRA having them funded by the americans and lauded as freedom fighters was always rather a sore point.
Were you perchance involved in training the mujahadeen in guerrilla warfare against the russians? Don't answer that, but the irony of british troops facing people the british and americans helped train in warfare is well understood in this country. Might have been better to back up the russians.
posted by jester
I ackowledge all those things dear, what Im saying is that what we do with those prosioners of war does not affect Jimbos freedom in any way. That has nothing to do with the sacrifices of the honorable fighters of the countries of the world who have helped stop terrorism.
It does affect us because it is that kind of behaviour that does a great deal to win the extremists more and more support. This is not the middle ages, you are not about some great crusade to defend your religion nor are we protected by the sacrifice of honourable fighters in some demented medieval war game gallantly going off to war. Most people in this country care very much what happens to our soldiers and are angry at a government that get them involved in warfare when wars should only be fought as a last resort. They care because the soldiers getting killed or are at risk are not strangers. Most of the british posters probably know someone who is in the armed forces if not directly then indirectly. Poppy day at my wife's school was remarkable as so many of the kids wanted to do something because a lot of the layabout teenagers know other layabout teenagers who have joined up since leaving school and are actually involved in all of this.
Bush was an idiot that seized on a terrorist attack to pursue an agenda that had nothing to do with combating terrorism. Had McCain won it would have had osama bin laden and his ilk jumping for joy more of the same policy would have got them more and more support.
Closing Guantanamo Bay is metaphorically reclaiming the moral high ground. If you stay in the morass of cast away high ideals then you will lose.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1070071 wrote: I ackowledge all those things dear
Don't ever call me 'dear'.
Don't ever call me 'dear'.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
jimbo;1070150 wrote: over here in the uk right next to the IRA bombings sponsered by you guys you mean
i lived only a few hundred yards from an army barracks for many years under the threat of getting blown to bits every time you went into a pub or cafe
Provisional IRA campaign 1969–1997 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and now i live near london ,i often travel by tube or bus
7 July 2005 London bombings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
no where near terror give me a break jester i have lived with it since i was ten
so you have had a taste of what its like to have your innocent men,women and children blown to bits by some gutless cowards ,who take innocents hostage ,and blow innocents to bits for no reason ,these people have no regards for human life or the welfare of the people who are really just innocent victims ,their only crime is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time
sort of what your doing right now to people whose only crime may be to look like they a terrorists:rolleyes:
during the troubles i got friendly with quite a few soldiers ,they knew who the IRA was but without the proof of guilt they would not shoot them ,its better 10 guilty go free than one person of no guilt get murdered by the state .... i was a younger man then it was hard for me to understand why these evil men got away scott free ,men who would of blown us all to bits without a backward glance , now i see the wisdom in their words :-6
Most of the true IRA bombers never came to justice. 'The Birmingham six' and 'The Guilford Four' were fitted up.
When the IRA bombed 'The Grand Hotel' on Brighton's Esplanade in 1984, i was 2 or 3 miles away at home. The boom, i swear, shook our houses. Us and neighbours ran out into the street not really knowing why and running around like headless chickens.
Although i have said this before on another thread with galbally, what i didn't mention on that thread was that my ex-husband was a fire-man who specialised in electrics and chemicals. He got the call and was whisked off down there and it was how we knew so quickly that it was 'The Thatcher' government staying in the 'Grand Hotel for the 'Conservative Party Conference'. It was also odds on that it was the IRA.
We got in our cars and followed on by by the time we got there, we couldn't get any where near for emergency services. I remember the smell, the black cloud, the dust and people screaming.
One tactic of the IRA was to detonate a 2nd bomb once rescuers were in and i remember the fear of knowing my husband was in there and waiting for the '2nd blast'.
Then the question, 'Was there other bombs in other parts of the town waiting to go off?'
Five people died and nearly 50 people were seriously injured. Innocent young girls working in the hotel that night included. My ex husband was hospitalised briefly for smoke inhalation.
Jimbo, i know all about the fear of being blown up.
Jester, if you think us liddle old Brits know nothing of terrorism, think again. That was not some war far away. that was on my doorstep.
Although i never forgave the ex husband for trying to help get Thatcher out
joke joke
i lived only a few hundred yards from an army barracks for many years under the threat of getting blown to bits every time you went into a pub or cafe
Provisional IRA campaign 1969–1997 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and now i live near london ,i often travel by tube or bus
7 July 2005 London bombings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
no where near terror give me a break jester i have lived with it since i was ten
so you have had a taste of what its like to have your innocent men,women and children blown to bits by some gutless cowards ,who take innocents hostage ,and blow innocents to bits for no reason ,these people have no regards for human life or the welfare of the people who are really just innocent victims ,their only crime is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time
sort of what your doing right now to people whose only crime may be to look like they a terrorists:rolleyes:
during the troubles i got friendly with quite a few soldiers ,they knew who the IRA was but without the proof of guilt they would not shoot them ,its better 10 guilty go free than one person of no guilt get murdered by the state .... i was a younger man then it was hard for me to understand why these evil men got away scott free ,men who would of blown us all to bits without a backward glance , now i see the wisdom in their words :-6
Most of the true IRA bombers never came to justice. 'The Birmingham six' and 'The Guilford Four' were fitted up.
When the IRA bombed 'The Grand Hotel' on Brighton's Esplanade in 1984, i was 2 or 3 miles away at home. The boom, i swear, shook our houses. Us and neighbours ran out into the street not really knowing why and running around like headless chickens.
Although i have said this before on another thread with galbally, what i didn't mention on that thread was that my ex-husband was a fire-man who specialised in electrics and chemicals. He got the call and was whisked off down there and it was how we knew so quickly that it was 'The Thatcher' government staying in the 'Grand Hotel for the 'Conservative Party Conference'. It was also odds on that it was the IRA.
We got in our cars and followed on by by the time we got there, we couldn't get any where near for emergency services. I remember the smell, the black cloud, the dust and people screaming.
One tactic of the IRA was to detonate a 2nd bomb once rescuers were in and i remember the fear of knowing my husband was in there and waiting for the '2nd blast'.
Then the question, 'Was there other bombs in other parts of the town waiting to go off?'
Five people died and nearly 50 people were seriously injured. Innocent young girls working in the hotel that night included. My ex husband was hospitalised briefly for smoke inhalation.
Jimbo, i know all about the fear of being blown up.
Jester, if you think us liddle old Brits know nothing of terrorism, think again. That was not some war far away. that was on my doorstep.
Although i never forgave the ex husband for trying to help get Thatcher out
joke joke
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
jimbo;1070213 wrote: STAGgering :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
isn't that right dear :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Watch it sunbeam. The last person who called me 'dear' ate hospital food for quite some time. My troublesome young nephew who speaks a language i do not understand, calls me 'Mint'. I am told it is of the highest compliment. Let's leave it at that shall we or i might buy him a train ticket to 'Bracknell' for Christmas. :yh_rotfl
isn't that right dear :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Watch it sunbeam. The last person who called me 'dear' ate hospital food for quite some time. My troublesome young nephew who speaks a language i do not understand, calls me 'Mint'. I am told it is of the highest compliment. Let's leave it at that shall we or i might buy him a train ticket to 'Bracknell' for Christmas. :yh_rotfl
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1070231 wrote: Please excuse me, I was just trying to acknowledge you as a lady and not a guy. From now on I'll just use 'Oscar'.
Accepted. I prefer 'Lady', that's Mint.
Accepted. I prefer 'Lady', that's Mint.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
jimbo;1070253 wrote: A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal.
Oscar Wilde
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
That's quite a compliment really Jimbo, he was highly talented, highly intelligent and a revered writer. Yes, i like that.
While Jester is at the store and we wait for his return (hope it's not Woolworths),
Perhaps you'd like to listen and watch the greatest live performance i ever saw?
The one on the far left of the screen is my hero of 31 years, Jean jaques Burnel, the greatest bass guitarist living. 9Well we have to look at something while waiting for Jester to come back!)
YouTube - The Stranglers - Down In The Sewer ( Royal Albert Hall )
Oscar Wilde
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
That's quite a compliment really Jimbo, he was highly talented, highly intelligent and a revered writer. Yes, i like that.
While Jester is at the store and we wait for his return (hope it's not Woolworths),
Perhaps you'd like to listen and watch the greatest live performance i ever saw?
The one on the far left of the screen is my hero of 31 years, Jean jaques Burnel, the greatest bass guitarist living. 9Well we have to look at something while waiting for Jester to come back!)
YouTube - The Stranglers - Down In The Sewer ( Royal Albert Hall )
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1070061 wrote: You guys kill me...
It's a freaken war. They are prisoners of war, and yeah it ticks me off that your all screaming to give them a trial, give me a break, they are prisoners of war, when their claimed terrorist group surrenders they can be returned, thats how war works.
Until then they should remain locked up, or tried and hanged.
Thats what you get when you take up arms againt the United States of America!
:-2 Or how it used to be, but don't worry guys, Obamaination will make restitution and pat them on the back and say 'Opps, sorry' and send them home. he will make all you eurpoeans ok with the 'nasty way' Bush treated those poor little combatants.:rolleyes:
Half of them were taken off the streets outside the war zone with no proof or evidence that they were ever involved in any war - how can they possible be prisoners of war.
Firstly, show evidence that they, the individuals held rather than the culture you believe that came from, have ever taken up arms against the US.
Then you can tell us what the point of a trial is when you have so obviously decided they should hang immediately after it.
You are as bad as the worst fanatics you are opposing
It's a freaken war. They are prisoners of war, and yeah it ticks me off that your all screaming to give them a trial, give me a break, they are prisoners of war, when their claimed terrorist group surrenders they can be returned, thats how war works.
Until then they should remain locked up, or tried and hanged.
Thats what you get when you take up arms againt the United States of America!
:-2 Or how it used to be, but don't worry guys, Obamaination will make restitution and pat them on the back and say 'Opps, sorry' and send them home. he will make all you eurpoeans ok with the 'nasty way' Bush treated those poor little combatants.:rolleyes:
Half of them were taken off the streets outside the war zone with no proof or evidence that they were ever involved in any war - how can they possible be prisoners of war.
Firstly, show evidence that they, the individuals held rather than the culture you believe that came from, have ever taken up arms against the US.
Then you can tell us what the point of a trial is when you have so obviously decided they should hang immediately after it.
You are as bad as the worst fanatics you are opposing
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1070063 wrote: Im not sorry either. You guys have no idea what its like to fight agaisnt these bastards... and to see them let go to return to do it all over again.
It's nuts and Obama is an IDIOT!
Just because you have been fighting Muslims is no cause to hate all Muslims.
It's nuts and Obama is an IDIOT!
Just because you have been fighting Muslims is no cause to hate all Muslims.
Obama to close Guantanamo
Jester;1070224 wrote: Jimbo what I meant was that your freedom is not in jeapordy by what we do to the POW's at Gitmo. I said nothing about how terrorism affects you.
They took up arms agaisnt us, thats good enough for me.
If they did then prove it - if you (the US Administration) cannot then let them go because they are, by definition, innocent.
What you do in Cuba is very much affecting our freedom by politicising half the world and driving many of them to join the terrorists - US policy is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
They took up arms agaisnt us, thats good enough for me.
If they did then prove it - if you (the US Administration) cannot then let them go because they are, by definition, innocent.
What you do in Cuba is very much affecting our freedom by politicising half the world and driving many of them to join the terrorists - US policy is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
jimbo;1070274 wrote: never mind the bollocks here's the stranglers :-3:-3:-3
my fave punk rock of all time
if you have cold ears i have an ice pick :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl er just kidding ... with the meet up a couple of months away i dont want to get you wilder oscar :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
YouTube - The Stranglers - No More Heroes
You watch it Jimbo at the meet up. Lucky Mr Oscar will be there to control me :yh_rotfl
I have to correct you however. The Stranglers themselves take great unbrage at being labeled 'Punk'. It was unfortunate that they appeared on the scene at the time of the 'Sex Pistols' and got lumped in with them. The major difference being all the Stranglers were classicaly trained musicians who could actually play their instruments. I have idolised J.J. Burnel ever since i saw them in 'Battersea park' in the 70's. I have been all over Europe with them blah blah blah, i could go on for ever.
While Jester returns from the store (he's probably gone to buy an ouzi,) and answers more serious posts like Bryns latest. here's J.J. Burnel with his first solo single about 'Freddie Laker'. They had to distort the lyrics for fear of upsetting 'Thatcher' at the time. God, he still makes me swoon.
And yes, I got an ice pick that made my ears burn :yh_rotfl
Just seen them all on their latest tour. Still as great as ever.
YouTube - jean-jacques burnel - Freddie Laker
my fave punk rock of all time
if you have cold ears i have an ice pick :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl er just kidding ... with the meet up a couple of months away i dont want to get you wilder oscar :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
YouTube - The Stranglers - No More Heroes
You watch it Jimbo at the meet up. Lucky Mr Oscar will be there to control me :yh_rotfl
I have to correct you however. The Stranglers themselves take great unbrage at being labeled 'Punk'. It was unfortunate that they appeared on the scene at the time of the 'Sex Pistols' and got lumped in with them. The major difference being all the Stranglers were classicaly trained musicians who could actually play their instruments. I have idolised J.J. Burnel ever since i saw them in 'Battersea park' in the 70's. I have been all over Europe with them blah blah blah, i could go on for ever.
While Jester returns from the store (he's probably gone to buy an ouzi,) and answers more serious posts like Bryns latest. here's J.J. Burnel with his first solo single about 'Freddie Laker'. They had to distort the lyrics for fear of upsetting 'Thatcher' at the time. God, he still makes me swoon.
And yes, I got an ice pick that made my ears burn :yh_rotfl
Just seen them all on their latest tour. Still as great as ever.
YouTube - jean-jacques burnel - Freddie Laker
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Obama to close Guantanamo
Is Jester back yet??
Mean while...... What happened to jacques jaques Burnel
YouTube - The Stranglers - JJ Burnel "After They Were Famous"
Mean while...... What happened to jacques jaques Burnel
YouTube - The Stranglers - JJ Burnel "After They Were Famous"
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon