Reality Check Time

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Galbally
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Post by Galbally »

I have been thinking about some things today, about the issues in the world at the moment, and also what's coming down the line. One thing I keep on thinking about is population, where its heading, and what it means.

Most of the time our economic and political philosophy can seem so divorced from a looming reality check, for instance, economic prosperity is based on the idea that we need continual growth of about 2-3 percent in the world economy every year, which means a concurrent increase in consumption and production of goods and services every year, but something about this idea of an ever-increasing production of goods and services seems to avoid an obvious point.

Planet Earth is finite, there is only so much land, sea, oil, coal, clean water and air in absolute terms, how far away the limits are is debateable, but the fact that limits exist is self-evident. However, the dream seems to be that somehow everyone on the planet can reach levels of wealth and consumption equivalent to those of people in the West; thats what China is aiming for, and India. How is this going to achieved, at what point will the population and resource bubble burst?

What I am thinking is that at present, in 2009, we already have a world of 6.5 billion human beings, where about 2 billion live on the poverty line, and a billion under the risk of daily starvation. The major factor is the lack of clean water, and their inability to access sustainable food supplies. Yet, the population of Planet Earth is projected to be about 9 billion people by 2050. How on earth are all these people going to fed without ripping up whatever is left of the water and land resources we have available and creating a global totalitarian state to dole out our meagre resources to ever increasing numbers of hungry, scared, angry mouths? Its the malthusian nightmare.

How can the lives of people in the third world possibly be improved if the population of the third world doubles in 30 years? If every agricultural and medical advance made in the West, when translated to an African context doesn't result in better living standards but just more and more people? How are the other affluent countries going to cope with the consequences of where this is leading the world.

We are already starting to see the social and political consequences of mass immigration to Europe and America from third world countries, that problem is only going to get worse if this population pressure and resource depletion continues apace. Western countries generally have stable populations and can feed themselves at present (hopefully climate change won't impact agriculture past the point where Europeans and Americans can't produce enough food), we shall see. Asia, and Africa are however different stories, and these are the two continents where all of the population growth is occurring.

China and India already have unsustainable populations, which are increasing, they are destroying their resources in a scramble to Western style urbanized affluence; their water resources in particular are very very vunerable, and most people in these countries still live on subsistence farming. For example, India may have 300 million people who live relatively well by Asian standards, but it has 700 million who live in abject poverty and who rely on rice basically to live. Many of them live in the plain of the Ganges, a fertile region, that supports 450 million peasants who cultivate rice for their daily subsistence, but the glaciers that feed the Ganges are melting rapidly, and this river-based agricultural system may become unviable in 50 years.

Think about that for a moment, and what that one fact alone implies.

Africa is a population timebomb, that no one on the continent of Africa seems willing or able to address; and cultural and political factors mean that very little is being done to look at this issue in the cold light of day. A continent whose climate is already one that has never allowed a very large population to be viable, which is experiencing massive, almost exponential population growth.

In the West we look at Africa as a charity issue based on middle-class colonial guilt, and send money and food aid to countries whose governments are allowing their populations to grow way past the point where their lands are able to sustain them, and any serious climatic problem such as drought or soil erosion etc will lead to famines and other disasters where the loss of life will be on biblical, (and I mean biblical) scales.

Corrupt African governments play on this and instead of using aid to improve the lot of their people and make their nations more sustainable, use it to keep the mass of the population simply alive and fed (or not even that, on occasion); while enriching themselves by selling off whatever indigenous resources their countries have. The poor simply reproduce more children to ensure they have someone to look after them as they grow older (not that many get to be that old). The DRC is a prime example of this.

In a century where we are facing a rapidly destabilizing climate, where the poorest, climatically vunerable, and badly governed regions have exponentially growing populations who existence is mostly about trying to get food, what is going to be the end result? Africa already cannot feed itself, yet the population of Africa is set to double in 25 years. Can anyone else see where this is going? :thinking:
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



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Galbally
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Post by Galbally »

What about the example of Saudi Arabia? Its one of the most arid places on the planet, in the past it had a very small but sustainable population who lived in a manner that was applicable to the environment they live in.

But in modern times Saudi Arabia has of course become massively wealthy because of oil, and concurrently has had a massive increase in its population to around the 25 million mark, 25 million living in what is essentially a desert, all maintained by the proceeds of oil revenues; kept in check by a ruthlessly oppressive government and cultural code; where you need massive and expensive seawater desalinization plants just to provide them with water, and massive quantities of expensive imported food to feed them; all paid for with oil money.

How is Saudi Arabia going to provide food and water for its population when its one and only resource oil is no longer there, and the massive inflows of money that allow the Saudis to import food and reclaim sea water are gone? How will that country survive the consequences? What will that mean for the politics of the region?

That day is not very far away, yet no one seems to want to contemplate what it will mean.

In many ways I think our current allegedly sophisticated, modern, interconnected global civilization is completely mad, its eating itself up, and is headed the same way as the Mayans.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Oh feck me for fourpence!!!

One moment I'm happy, about to sip my Bailey's Irish cream, kiss the dogs goodnight (yes, i know that's no way to talk about the family), slip in to something uncomfortable, get into my lovely bed, Kiss my picture of Gordon Brown, turn my back on Mr O, and slip dreamily into a restfull nights slumber..... and what happens?

Galbally slips a late thread in as cunning as that of a 'Vinney Jones' tackle. I think hmmmmm galbally has got something to say...... It'd be rude not to show him the curtesy of reading his infinate wisdom. I get one third of the way down the post and i'm beginning to feel a familiar tingle of dread. Half way down the post and the familiar tingle turns to an all knowing feeling of dread. Three quarters down the post i begin to suffer flashback syndrome of previous galbally posts. I finish and now my brain has succumbed to the wisdom bestowed upon me. My restfull nights slumber is now no more than a fleeting memory. I am awake, I need coffee, i need medication, I need The Stranglers greatest hits on the hi fi, the dogs waken, Mr O is alerted (although i'm not sure what a 'lerted' is exactly) my vitals are racing and i know that now i shall not sleep until i am counselled out of the sucicidal thoughts that galbally has once again inflicted upon my battered mind.



GET THE KETTLE ON MR O......... GALBALLY HAS DONE IT AGAIN
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Jester

You don't think there's a population issue to be concerned about?

I can see Gall's point on the population increase & am concerned .



Oscar - too funny:wah:

Patsy
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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1123667 wrote: Simmer down there boy!

Gall, Respectuflly, How do you know for certain we really have issues with poulation such as you have stated?

Don't we really have issues with governments not gettign along well enough to share technology in a manner that could sustain all the current and future populations?

For instance, Lets take SA- lets say their oil does run dry, they either need to invade another region and take more oil or they need to make a diplomatic deal with a nation that can supply them with the mateirals they need. Given SA relgious views, I dout any western coutnry would make such a deal with them unless they were willing to open up to religious freedom.

I would say sir that, it isnt so much that the earth cannot sustain us, its more that humans refuse to cooperate, soemtimes for good reason, somestimes not.

So throw that into the mix of your great thoughts (lets hope you can sleep tonight too bud)


I agree with you that the fact that people find it hard to get along and share the resources for many reasons, mostly its not intentional, its just the way things are; but its also equally true that one regions living standards are not possible in another region of world (in many instances), because the resources are not evenly divided across the planet. They never have been, this is a fact of Geography.

Sub-saharan Africa has always been a incredibly difficult place for humans to live, but modern medicine, food production, transport systems, and aid programs have enabled the population in that region of the world to increase massively, but its not sustainable to keep doing this. Its just not sustainable.

Also, from our Western perspective, obviously we cannot ignore these issues, but Americans and Europeans cannot be expected to somehow deal with these problems (as so many people seem to demand without thinking that through), apart from the fact that they don't have the capability to anyway, the politics of it is impossible, you can already hear the outrage at what could be percieved as the new colonialism, and "the white man's burden" in the form of trying to square the circle.

Obviously (as you say) all peoples in the world can try to be better neighbours, to share technologies, have fairer global trade mechanisms, and new resource-saving methods to help ordinary people's lives, but if that just results in even more people living in places that can't really support them then its a dead end, it just takes longer to get there.

I honestly don't know what the answers are, I'm just looking at things and wondering, maybe like Oscar says, I should just go to bed. :thinking:
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Galbally »

oscar;1123686 wrote: Oh feck me for fourpence!!!

One moment I'm happy, about to sip my Bailey's Irish cream, kiss the dogs goodnight (yes, i know that's no way to talk about the family), slip in to something uncomfortable, get into my lovely bed, Kiss my picture of Gordon Brown, turn my back on Mr O, and slip dreamily into a restfull nights slumber..... and what happens?

Galbally slips a late thread in as cunning as that of a 'Vinney Jones' tackle. I think hmmmmm galbally has got something to say...... It'd be rude not to show him the curtesy of reading his infinate wisdom. I get one third of the way down the post and i'm beginning to feel a familiar tingle of dread. Half way down the post and the familiar tingle turns to an all knowing feeling of dread. Three quarters down the post i begin to suffer flashback syndrome of previous galbally posts. I finish and now my brain has succumbed to the wisdom bestowed upon me. My restfull nights slumber is now no more than a fleeting memory. I am awake, I need coffee, i need medication, I need The Stranglers greatest hits on the hi fi, the dogs waken, Mr O is alerted (although i'm not sure what a 'lerted' is exactly) my vitals are racing and i know that now i shall not sleep until i am counselled out of the sucicidal thoughts that galbally has once again inflicted upon my battered mind.



GET THE KETTLE ON MR O......... GALBALLY HAS DONE IT AGAIN


Sorry, I know, sometimes I should just not think so much about things, it doesn't do me much good either. :thinking:
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

I never told you to go to bed galbally. I would not dare be so presumtious;)

galbally, my celtic scientist...... now i shan't get back to sleep..... i'm up for a late night phone call should you want to discuss your worrie's. If these thoughts trouble you... you should see what the feck i've been posting on another thread tonight. :o:o:o:o

It's a thread called 'All the hopes and dreams' by Open Mind if your interested.

Only great minds give such thought to such issue's.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by Galbally »

Patsy Warnick;1123748 wrote: Jester

You don't think there's a population issue to be concerned about?

I can see Gall's point on the population increase & am concerned .



Oscar - too funny:wah:

Patsy


Yeah, it is concerning, but I probably shouldn't bring things like this up, at least until we're through the current catastrophes; "lets deal with one tragedy at a time" as a wise friend of mine once said.

The population figures come from the UN, and from various research organizations that deal with such things; and they are backed up by other national Government sources, such as the US State Department, or the EU Commission. Figures for India and China are also of course compiled by their own governments, and are considered reasonably accurate. The African figures are not as accurate, but they are still more or less correct, as are the growth trends, based on current conditions.



The current population is calculated to be about 6.5 billion with an error either side of about 4-5 percent. The 2050 figure is a projection, based on currently observed growth rates, these projections could change either way, up or down, but certainly overall the population of the planet is growing very rapidly, with nearly all of it happening in the poorest countries.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Galbally »

Okay, current populations by continent.

World's Population by Continents

61% of the world's population lives in the continent of Asia.

Asia 4,001,623,990

Africa 934,499,752

Europe 729,871,042

North America 522,807,432

South America 379,919,602

Oceania (incl. Australia) 33,552,994

Antarctica no indigenous inhabitants
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Galbally »

Now some projections

continent population estimate/projected 2030



Northern America 396,000,000

Latin America & the Caribbean 723,000,000

Oceania 42,000,000

Europe 670,000,000

Asia 4,950,000,000

Africa 1,489,000,000

World 8,270,000,000
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Galbally »

These figures are from different sources, so you can see discrepencies in them (for instance the first set of figures puts central America in with North America, but the second one puts central America in with South America, so its not perfect, sorry its late and I am not going on long data searches.

But any population figures you go and look for will show that there are very large projected increases in Asia and Africa, while North America will increase more slowly, and Europe will actually decline over the coming decades.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1123790 wrote: But do we have enough viable land to sustain the current and projected population if we removed borders and governments cooperated in a basic exchange of goods and services freely despite political and or religious differences?


How would that be possible? Even creating a single market for goods and services in Europe (which is one continent and civilization has taken at least 50 years, and is not an easy or uncontroversial task by any means).

To do something similar for the entire world would involve a cultural and political level of cooperation and unity that does not, and in my opinion will never, exist.

Even if such a thing were possible, it would not be desirable in my opinion.

I'm not providing answers here, I don't know what they are, I am just thinking about it.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1123794 wrote: For instance nobody in India would starve if they decided to look past their religious objections to eating meat. Plenty of sacred cows for food there.


Jester, it takes far more water and land to make a pound of beef than a pound of rice. Even if you turned every inch of arable land over to rice or potato, or wheat production, and enforced it ruthlessly, at some point you would still hit a population ceiling, and of course the other issue would be that peoples entire lives would involve growing and eating one crop, worldwide.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Galbally;1123809 wrote: Jester, it takes far more water and land to make a pound of beef than a pound of rice. Even if you turned every inch of arable land over to rice or potato, or wheat production, and enforced it ruthlessly, at some point you would still hit a population ceiling, and of course the other issue would be that peoples entire lives would involve growing and eating one crop, worldwide.


You'd also hit global warming, draught, famine, disease, natural disaster and war.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1123801 wrote: I predict the US population will slow the decline over the next four years. And I think without immigration (legal or other wise) we'd be in current population decline.


Yes, its well understood that most of the growth in the US population will come from immigration, most of it from Latin America. In Europe its the same situation, except our immigrants are projected to come from Africa and Asia while our native populations decline. That in itself poses very very serious questions about what sort of policies and social trends we are pursuing in affluent countries.

Of course the things about projections, is that the trends they are based on can change over the time period your dealing with, so they can turn out wrong, but certainly at the moment the trends are in place, and they are not changing.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
Patsy Warnick
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Jester

The population worry is a myth..? are you kidding..? we'll see won't we.??

Your worried about the Gov't - yes, I know, that's why your retired..

Who do you think will be supporting this population boom.?? GOV'T..

Recently the lady who delivered 8 - was single - welfare.

Let's see - when economy takes a dive - money's tight

What do people do.?? SEX

As Gall stated, the population is growing rapidly in the POOREST Countries and

the POOREST People within a Wealthy Country.

We'll see - it'll be labeled " Generation Recession"

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Post by Galbally »

Here is an example from history from my own country, Ireland.

In the 1830s, the population of the Island of Ireland was about 9 million people. Most of them lived as illiterate peasants, with very large families, working tiny plots of land growing one crop, potatoes.

The potato is a wonderfully nutritious crop, that can produce and awful lot of calories from a small patch of land, which is why they grew it, and why it facilitated this large poor peasant population.

Unfortunately in 1847 a disease called potato blight reached Ireland and for 3 sucessive years, the potato crop failed. The result was mass starvation, death, and immigration (mostly to the US, which is why so many Americans are of Irish extraction). Whatever the arguments about the politics of the Famine, the basic fact was that the population had grown to a high historical level based on one type of crop, that eventually failed.

By 1880 the population of Ireland was about 50 percent of what it was in 1840 and it has never recovered those earlier levels again (even now, the population of the entire Island is only about 6.5 million). That is the consequence of what can happen when a poor population, living a subsistence lifestyle based on one crop, experiences a environmental shock to the production of their food supply.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Jester

Oh, as far as all that land you can see while flying -

Gov't owns most of that land and if the Gov't doesn't own it

Ted Turner owns the land..

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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1123839 wrote: Not my point- they refuse to see the natural resources right in front of them, the cows run wild while people starve.

Now Think about the advancing technolgoies for a sec. I can recal when a acre of alfalfa brougt only so much grain, now with the ag technology that same acre produces 150- times what it dod just 30 years ago.

What I see is when there is a need man invents somthing new to fill it, we have no idea what is on the horizon.

I don't belive we will ever hit a population cieling... for several reasons but one reason I'll point out in this part fo the discussion is the fact that wars greatly decrease the population. Look at what happend over the past 30 years with the bannign DDT- 500 million deaths from malaria. Thats 500 Million that will never produce children. The HIV epdimic in Africa in some cases 57% of the population has active HIV. Everyone of those people are going to die (avergae life expectancy with active HIV in under developed countries is 4 years.

My point is, at any time, life is uncertain, we could have population stall, in ten years based on epedimics alone.


Sure, as you say, at these sorts of growth rates, and the unsustainability of what's happening in many countries, and how things are being run, large population crashes are inevitable. But the human and political consequences are pretty appalling are they not??
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Jester

You liked my Ted Turner comment..:yh_rotfl

Ted will make a " Toll Bridge " around your land.

Jester -" Basic Nutritional Meals"

do you see the world going basic ? is that what a visit to a supermarket tells you that life is going basic.

I see easy to go foods - microwave - that's as basic as some people know how to go. there are exceptions, but most people wouldn't have a clue how to go Basic. they won't survive, just that simple.

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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Your fooling yourself

Given Training - people are tained to work and THEIR NOT WORKING.

People are out on the curb NOW - their not planting tomatoes.

This thread is called REALITY CHECK ...

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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1123896 wrote: It can be, yes, it can also be amazing, and out of terrible calamity rises a new generation that learns how to survive on another level.


Ah Americans, such an optimistic, forward looking people. Forgive this somewhat cynical and jaded European, you know what us old worlders are like. We are worriers.

Of course humanity is usually observed at its best in adversity, history abounds in examples such as our neighbours the British, whose finer qualities were well displayed when their backs were up against the wall in the Second World War.

But some calamities can be so catastrophic and sudden that they can overwhelm the best of people, and the most energetic of nations. Sometimes the danger is slower and comes unwatched and unheeded, even from within, until its too late.

I can give you many examples, the 2,000 years of the power of the Pharoes one day failed, the Greeks conquered what was left, and all thats left are their pyramids and temples, in turn the Greeks for all their brilliance could not stop their own decline and eventual submission to Rome, Rome itself (and the entire Classical world) fell to barbarism having once ruled the known world.

Byzantium lasted on for another 1,000 years but eventually vanished and the walls of Constantinople (however strong) couldn't stop the rot that was within them, and in more recent era's the Maya, Aztecs, and Inca are all gone, as are the great Kingdoms and dynasties of Empires once ruled from Bagdad, from Istanbul, from Moscow, Paris, or even from London. These are lessons from history for everyone. I don't mean to wax too lyrical, but you get my point I am sure.

In these issues I am discussing, unfortunately those most effected will come from countries least equipped either in resources, cultural outlook, or strong institutions to help them cope. Of course, its conjecture, and perhaps I am just being pessimistic tonight, but it doesn't hurt to think about these things, however unpalatable they are.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by wildhorses »

Galbally;1123789 wrote: Now some projections

continent population estimate/projected 2030



Northern America 396,000,000

Latin America & the Caribbean 723,000,000

Oceania 42,000,000

Europe 670,000,000

Asia 4,950,000,000

Africa 1,489,000,000

World 8,270,000,000


How are North America and Europe going to have LESS population by 2030? Are you expecting a catastrophe or something?
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Post by wildhorses »

Galbally;1123971 wrote: Ah Americans, such an optimistic, forward looking people. Forgive this somewhat cynical and jaded European, you know what us old worlders are like. We are worriers.

Of course humanity is usually observed at its best in adversity, history abounds in examples such as our neighbours the British, whose finer qualities were well displayed when their backs were up against the wall in the Second World War.

But some calamities can be so catastrophic and sudden that they can overwhelm the best of people, and the most energetic of nations. Sometimes the danger is slower and comes unwatched and unheeded, even from within, until its too late.

I can give you many examples, the 2,000 years of the power of the Pharoes one day failed, the Greeks conquered what was left, and all thats left are their pyramids and temples, in turn the Greeks for all their brilliance could not stop their own decline and eventual submission to Rome, Rome itself (and the entire Classical world) fell to barbarism having once ruled the known world.

Byzantium lasted on for another 1,000 years but eventually vanished and the walls of Constantinople (however strong) couldn't stop the rot that was within them, and in more recent era's the Maya, Aztecs, and Inca are all gone, as are the great Kingdoms and dynasties of Empires once ruled from Bagdad, from Istanbul, from Moscow, Paris, or even from London. These are lessons from history for everyone. I don't mean to wax too lyrical, but you get my point I am sure.

In these issues I am discussing, unfortunately those most effected will come from countries least equipped either in resources, cultural outlook, or strong institutions to help them cope. Of course, its conjecture, and perhaps I am just being pessimistic tonight, but it doesn't hurt to think about these things, however unpalatable they are.


No. You are not just being pessimistic. If our world keeps populating then we are headed for an implosion.

I recently was reading some articles on the Mayans. The focus of the articles was with regard to remains that have been found in the region. Many were children that appeared to have died from starvation. This is the direction we are headed if we dont slow down our population growth.

At some point there wont be enough resources for everyone...and even if we invent some way to provide for everyone, there is the simple matter of space. I know right now there are some wide open spaces, but that could change. How will we handle waste for an over populated world? How will we provide heat? We can already recycle water, but what if there is not enough water to recycle?

Of course, on the other hand, something could happen that would make it sustainable....like finding another planet or planets that can support humans. Anything is possible, but I would not count on it.

At present we are left with only the globe we have....and we are headed for a brick wall.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

wildhorses;1123979 wrote: How are North America and Europe going to have LESS population by 2030? Are you expecting a catastrophe or something?


Yes... it's called a Conservative Government. :(
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Galbally
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Post by Galbally »

wildhorses;1123979 wrote: How are North America and Europe going to have LESS population by 2030? Are you expecting a catastrophe or something?


No just a slow population decline because of low birth rates and an aging population, thats a phenomena across the Western world in Britain, Germany, and also in places like Russia, and Japan.

In Europe, Russia, and Japan the populations are gradually declining because of lower birth rates, its not a catastrophe, its demographics. But it presents very particular problems for policy makers who are planning for the future.

In the US the birth rate is a bit higher I think, but without immigration the population of North America is roughly stable.
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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1123988 wrote: Gal, Hey bud Im just trying to cheer ya and help ya sleep tonight! For the most part Im just not a doom and glomer although these days my state of doom is being tried.

I'd was religious and tie in the refusal to accept God as he is in the case of thos eations you mentioned, Eqypt and Greece, etc. But it doesnt belong in this discussion so I'll mention it in passing then refrain.

Nations wax and wane, governments change, morph and are destroyed all the time, new ones rise. But in th eend man is still around, and we are still using the resources that are before us.

I cant tell you if the US is even going ot be here in the next four years, I think it is, but as you say, we could be wiped out as a unified people over night. One never knows.

I would offer a suggestion though, all beit a biblical one. Start in your own circle of contacts, spread truth, love everyone, do no wrong, and be creative and give hope. I don't think anyone can go wrong with that advice. If you can make a positive difference do so, even if its a personal sacrifice. Can you imagine the influnce a nation of people would be if every one in that nation did that? Thats the solution to benifit an ongoing and growing world population.


Well I wouldn't have any doubt that the US will be better placed than most to cope with a difficult century, you have a unified nation on a huge fertile continent full of wonderful resources, and a culture that celebrates hard work and upward mobility, its not really America I would worry about Jester, or Europe, its places like Sub Saharan Africa, the Indian Sub-Continent, where many of the worlds poorest weakest people are facing a stark future. :(

Anyway, its a new day, so I am not going to be doomy and gloomy today. :-6
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Post by Galbally »

wildhorses;1123979 wrote: How are North America and Europe going to have LESS population by 2030? Are you expecting a catastrophe or something?


Also just to point out that those figures were from different sources and were compiled differently; so one includes latin America in North America, or White Russia in Europe, while the other does not, thats why the figures are somewhat different.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by wildhorses »

Galbally;1124077 wrote: No just a slow population decline because of low birth rates and an aging population, thats a phenomena across the Western world in Britain, Germany, and also in places like Russia, and Japan.

In Europe, Russia, and Japan the populations are gradually declining because of lower birth rates, its not a catastrophe, its demographics. But it presents very particular problems for policy makers who are planning for the future.

In the US the birth rate is a bit higher I think, but without immigration the population of North America is roughly stable.


Oh yes...without immigration it would decline for sure as the birthrate among non-immigrants is 1.8 %. It would be a slow decline, but a decline nontheless. Unless the economy really improves and we once again have stable employment.

I believe that part of the reason for the decline is unstable employment. During the baby boom of the 50's there was very stable employment. I think the birth rate would go up if people felt that they had a stable income on which to raise children. Part of the reason for job instability is mass immigration. So without that maybe people would have more faith and have some kids. But still they would only have two or three kids. It would be a slow incline....not enough to support the growth that you assert needs to take place in order to have a prosperous country. So either way there is a problem. But over population is way more dangerous.
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Post by wildhorses »

Galbally;1124086 wrote: Also just to point out that those figures were from different sources and were compiled differently; so one includes latin America in North America, or White Russia in Europe, while the other does not, thats why the figures are somewhat different.


Oh I get it now. And I guess that would be the projection without immigration. It makes sense that the population would decline without mass immigration.
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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1124122 wrote: I was referrign to folks who are in third world countries trying to get themselves otu of trouble by learning to farm for themseleves rather than get a hand out- sure give them food to stop the starvation but them teach them a method to grow thier own food. I was suggesting a method to truly help poeple up not out.


Yes, I do think you make sense (in general) there, though of course the devil is always in the detail in such things.

I think (in general) its a much better policy to promote self-reliance, sustainability, and self-confidence in poorer less developed countries than just send them food aid (usually tied to specific political objectives by the donor country as well it has to be said, which are often unhelpful), as that sort of policy just breeds a a culture of apathy and dependency.

A bit like the problems of national welfare systems that remove people's motivation to be self-reliant and pro-active.

Whether people will take the harder road is of course, another matter entirely.
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"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1124124 wrote: ahahahahha Gall yer killin me here-

Ok bud so why dont we as a NATO entitiy go in and clear out the rif-raf in the subaharan african continent and truly help them? We have the current technology and the knowhow, what we dont have is the control.


I think thats not viable.

In any case NATO has enough to deal with at the moment, and the alliance needs to step up the fight against the Taliban and Al Queda in Afganistan, which essentially means European NATO members giving more military support to a strengthened NATO mission led by the increased US military presence over there to create a better Afganistan (whatever the past differences over in Iraq).

That will be a difficult enough task, as the Taleban are a tough enemy and the politics of the region and Pakistan in particular complicate the situation, and its important that Europe does more to help there, as I think that war is justified and important, also its important for Europe to make it clear to Americans that we are your allies and visa versa, and we are not only moaners and whingers, we do realize that there are serious problems that we have to help with as well.

Now that the Bush Era is over, I think you will find that Europe will be more willing again to do more to help America in these difficult issues. We stood together against the Soviets, we need to have the same unity as in the cold war, and less self-indulgent bickering in these difficult times.

What we can offer the African continent is a better less exploitative relationships on trade and and technological/investment partnerships, but based on governments there cleaning up their own problems and genuinely trying to do something to better the lot of their own people.

That could start by the African Union getting rid of Mugabe from Zimbabwe, though hopefully a new power-sharing deal may resolve that situation. South African leaders also need to get real about the issues of AIDS in Africa, we can help there, President Bush to his credit did do some good work on that issue (see, we realize he wasn't all bad).

We should no longer deal with tinpot african dictators or allow guilt over the past to cloud the issues of the present day. We can do a lot to help Africa, but they have to do most of the hard work themselves, we can't do it for them.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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Post by Galbally »

Jester;1124128 wrote: Yep- but the desire is there for many orginizations, some humanistic some religious.

Great discussion by the way. Great thread.


Yes, its a good debate, thats why its useful to talk, even if its only us and obviously we can't solve the problems of the world, but at least we can think about these things for ourselves.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
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