Under Capitalism, a farmer making a living and feeding his family sees a field across the road from him for sale and he says to himself, "If I buy that field and farm it also, I can make more money and provide better for my family, my kids education etc.
Under Socialism, a farmer getting by on what the government allows him to keep, sees a field across the road and realizes that, if he were to buy that field (if in fact he could be allowed by the socialist government to buy it), and farmed the extra acreage, he would not get anything more to help his family as the extra would be taken by the government and handed to those "less fortunate". He therefore decides not to buy the field and realizes that if he works his land less, the socialists will still give him the same amount to live on so he becomes a slacker and lets the place go and it produces less for "the socialist network" but, the farmer doesn't care, he is still getting the same check so, why worry.
This is why a socialist government cannot and will not work on any long term basis and is exactly why the USA has been headed for problems ever since it started all the socialist programs, like social security, Medicare, unemployment compensation, SSI disability, etc. The more of these weighty programs you add onto the rolls the more overburdened the underpinnings become, and the sooner the collapse. Now the US Govt. is wanting to add a national health care system to the pile.
There is no way to pay for social security or Medicare down the road but, let's add more debt and socialist spending and see how soon we can bring the country down.
Capitalism vs socialism
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Richard Bell
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:56 am
Capitalism vs socialism
hoppy;1191751 wrote:
Now the US Govt. is wanting to add a national health care system to the pile.
There is no way to pay for social security or Medicare down the road but, let's add more debt and socialist spending and see how soon we can bring the country down.
Canadian and American Health Care Systems Compared :
The U.S. spends much more on health care than Canada, both on a per-capita basis and as a percentage of GDP.In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was US$6,714; in Canada, US$3,678. The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%
Canadian and American health care systems compared - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My American girlfriend is struggling to pay off what she owes on her major surgery last spring, and she had medical insurance through her employer.
In Soviet Canuckistan, it wouldn't have cost her a single loonie.
Now the US Govt. is wanting to add a national health care system to the pile.
There is no way to pay for social security or Medicare down the road but, let's add more debt and socialist spending and see how soon we can bring the country down.
Canadian and American Health Care Systems Compared :
The U.S. spends much more on health care than Canada, both on a per-capita basis and as a percentage of GDP.In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was US$6,714; in Canada, US$3,678. The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%
Canadian and American health care systems compared - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My American girlfriend is struggling to pay off what she owes on her major surgery last spring, and she had medical insurance through her employer.
In Soviet Canuckistan, it wouldn't have cost her a single loonie.
Capitalism vs socialism
Richard Bell;1191765 wrote: Canadian and American Health Care Systems Compared :
Canadian and American health care systems compared - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My American girlfriend is struggling to pay off what she owes on her major surgery last spring, and she had medical insurance through her employer.
In Soviet Canuckistan, it wouldn't have cost her a single loonie.
And my Canadian friend is still on a waiting list, hoping he don't die before they take him.
Socialism is something that should only be discussed in a classroom, never put into practice.
Canadian and American health care systems compared - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My American girlfriend is struggling to pay off what she owes on her major surgery last spring, and she had medical insurance through her employer.
In Soviet Canuckistan, it wouldn't have cost her a single loonie.
And my Canadian friend is still on a waiting list, hoping he don't die before they take him.
Socialism is something that should only be discussed in a classroom, never put into practice.
Capitalism vs socialism
hoppy;1191772 wrote: And my Canadian friend is still on a waiting list, hoping he don't die before they take him.
Socialism is something that should only be discussed in a classroom, never put into practice.
so what about a mixed economy?
Even the father of capitalism accepted that some things were so important that government had to be involved-things like the infrastructure for instance, (toll roads for instance) in private hands it would act as a brake on the economy and prevents economic development. Public health works-sewerage etc can't be left in private hands or to purely market forces. You al;so need laws to control the activities private companies-prevent the growth of monopolies or cartels bith of which are anti- capitalist.
The armed forces can't be in private hands or under the control of a large corporation so I suppose you could say your armed forces are socialised.:sneaky:
Socialism is something that should only be discussed in a classroom, never put into practice.
so what about a mixed economy?
Even the father of capitalism accepted that some things were so important that government had to be involved-things like the infrastructure for instance, (toll roads for instance) in private hands it would act as a brake on the economy and prevents economic development. Public health works-sewerage etc can't be left in private hands or to purely market forces. You al;so need laws to control the activities private companies-prevent the growth of monopolies or cartels bith of which are anti- capitalist.
The armed forces can't be in private hands or under the control of a large corporation so I suppose you could say your armed forces are socialised.:sneaky:
Capitalism vs socialism
Nope, sorry, not going to go for the dogma here.
Its ideology gone mad, in American "Capitalism" as an ideology has replaced the concept of the common good, and the interests of the nation, which is why the private banking and financial system just destroyed the economy and endebted and impoverished the general population at the same time, and have essentially gotten away with it (as everyone seems so brainwashed) while continuing to pay themselves the salaries of Renaissance Princes and lecturing everyone else on the idea that its ordinary people's fault for being too lazy, stupid, sick, having too many children etc.
Utter madness.
Its the flipside of what happened with insane dogmatic Communism in the former Soviet Union. A health economy is one that reflects the fact that some economic decisions are personal, some are collective, and some decisions (such as national defence) shouldn't be economic ones, but moral, military, or political ones.
Its ideology gone mad, in American "Capitalism" as an ideology has replaced the concept of the common good, and the interests of the nation, which is why the private banking and financial system just destroyed the economy and endebted and impoverished the general population at the same time, and have essentially gotten away with it (as everyone seems so brainwashed) while continuing to pay themselves the salaries of Renaissance Princes and lecturing everyone else on the idea that its ordinary people's fault for being too lazy, stupid, sick, having too many children etc.
Utter madness.
Its the flipside of what happened with insane dogmatic Communism in the former Soviet Union. A health economy is one that reflects the fact that some economic decisions are personal, some are collective, and some decisions (such as national defence) shouldn't be economic ones, but moral, military, or political ones.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Capitalism vs socialism
hoppy;1191751 wrote: Under Socialism, a farmer getting by on what the government allows him to keep, sees a field across the road and realizes that, if he were to buy that field (if in fact he could be allowed by the socialist government to buy it), and farmed the extra acreage, he would not get anything more to help his family as the extra would be taken by the government and handed to those "less fortunate". He therefore decides not to buy the field and realizes that if he works his land less, the socialists will still give him the same amount to live on so he becomes a slacker and lets the place go and it produces less for "the socialist network" but, the farmer doesn't care, he is still getting the same check so, why worry.
Are you saying, Hoppy, that the UK isn't a socialist country in your opinion? Because that's a lousy description of British farming. Our farmers see a field across the road for sale and say to themselves "If I buy that field and farm it also, I can make more money and provide better for my family, my kids education etc." and by crikey they make a lot of money in the process. Ask Galbally the position in Ireland and he'll tell you the same.
Are you saying, Hoppy, that the UK isn't a socialist country in your opinion? Because that's a lousy description of British farming. Our farmers see a field across the road for sale and say to themselves "If I buy that field and farm it also, I can make more money and provide better for my family, my kids education etc." and by crikey they make a lot of money in the process. Ask Galbally the position in Ireland and he'll tell you the same.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Capitalism vs socialism
spot;1192080 wrote: Are you saying, Hoppy, that the UK isn't a socialist country in your opinion? Because that's a lousy description of British farming. Our farmers see a field across the road for sale and say to themselves "If I buy that field and farm it also, I can make more money and provide better for my family, my kids education etc." and by crikey they make a lot of money in the process. Ask Galbally the position in Ireland and he'll tell you the same.
We've just had a 20 year experiment in super capitalism based on land assets, and the finanicalization of our entire society.
The result is that we are now totally broke, our society is wrecked, we have created a tier of extremely weathly land owners, but law and order has broken down in some areas of our big cities, and the nation is endebted to foreigners for hundreds of billions of Euro for non productive rubbish we don't need and luxury spending we don't need. In the meantime the price of everything is ridicouously high, we have a third world health system, and politicians who equate economic profiteering with the National interest of the Irish people, what a distaster.
We've just had a 20 year experiment in super capitalism based on land assets, and the finanicalization of our entire society.
The result is that we are now totally broke, our society is wrecked, we have created a tier of extremely weathly land owners, but law and order has broken down in some areas of our big cities, and the nation is endebted to foreigners for hundreds of billions of Euro for non productive rubbish we don't need and luxury spending we don't need. In the meantime the price of everything is ridicouously high, we have a third world health system, and politicians who equate economic profiteering with the National interest of the Irish people, what a distaster.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Capitalism vs socialism
Arguably america hasn't had a capitalist economy for some time rather it's been following a demented monetarist economic theory that has led to a corporatist economy whose failures we are now seeing. Without the checks and balances required for a capitalist economy to function properly you end up with a few people and companies controlling things and setting the agenda. They've started a war to get control of resources under the guise of acting in the nations interest, bankrupted the country in the process, overturned or ignored the constitution when it suited and managed to convince most people that anyone criticising was a dangerous radical threatening the american way of life.
It's not good capitalism to bail out failed companies-but nor was it to allow them to get away with influencing the legislature in order to keep out foreign competition or prevent laws that would have meant they would have had to face up to the reality of declining resources and the need for more fuel efficient cars-it's been bad for the consumer and even worse for the companies it's because you didn't have a capitalist economy you have the problems now.
It wasn't good capitalism to allow people to borrow money they couldn't pay back to buy property at overinflated prices-nor was it socialism (no private ownership or property would be allowed) it was just sheer greed and stupidity. There were plenty of people warning what would happen but they were just ignored as failing to understand that things were for the best in the best of all countries.
America might now perhaps go back to having a capitalist economy
posted by hoppy
Socialism is something that should only be discussed in a classroom, never put into practice.
maybe you should try discussing and teaching what capitalism and socialism actually are along with fascism and nazism before you start throwing labels around. In it's origins socialism is a ground roots cry for justice and equality and freedom from oppression. Maybe you could have a session on the common roots of the american revolution and the socialism.
posted by hoppy
Under Capitalism, a farmer making a living and feeding his family sees a field across the road from him for sale and he says to himself, "If I buy that field and farm it also, I can make more money and provide better for my family, my kids education etc.
Under Socialism, a farmer getting by on what the government allows him to keep, sees a field across the road and realizes that, if he were to buy that field (if in fact he could be allowed by the socialist government to buy it), and farmed the extra acreage, he would not get anything more to help his family as the extra would be taken by the government and handed to those "less fortunate". He therefore decides not to buy the field and realizes that if he works his land less, the socialists will still give him the same amount to live on so he becomes a slacker and lets the place go and it produces less for "the socialist network" but, the farmer doesn't care, he is still getting the same check so, why worry.
In the american version of it an agri business also sees the field for sale and outbids the poorer farmer (sadly the bank won't lend him the money-not enough collateral) who by the way has to buy all his seed from that same agribusiness and if he's been conned in to buying the GM version he can't even keep back some seed to plant the next years crop like he used to because he has to buy the fancy high yield from the seed merchant. He can't choose who he sells his crop to because a few food companies control the market and he basically has to accept the price they offer because rather than compete they operate a cartel to set the price ( they keep investigating and there are laws to prevent such things but it seems to drag on and on and who can afford the lawyers). But not to worry he can sell his farm to the big producer because when they amalgamate his farm with theirs they can produce more cheaply so long as they manage to stop any legislation that means they have to think about the long term consequences of using pesticides and herbicides indiscriminately but that's not a problem because they make big donations to all the political candidates so they're owed a few favours.
Meanwhile the farmer making a living can't make ends meet any more sells the farm but things are OK cos he gets a job labouring for the new owner of his farm who happens be a big agricultural company with great health benefits which he's going to need cos he has some strange kind of cancer-they say it might be due to some of the chemicals he has been spraying but he can't take part in the class action against the chemical company action on case he loses his job and besides everyone knows that is just a rumour spread by the tree huggers who are trying to ruin the farmers livelihood isn't it? Anyway he's dirt poor but that's his own fault for being a failure and not being able to make it-had a good start just too bad he lost the family farm
His son's doing well though. Pity he won't be be to inherit the family farm though but he's in the army and so long as he doesn't get killed or maimed in iraq he should be able to get a college education.
My favourite american socialist type protest song
YouTube - Johnny Cash - Sixteen Tons, 1987
It's not good capitalism to bail out failed companies-but nor was it to allow them to get away with influencing the legislature in order to keep out foreign competition or prevent laws that would have meant they would have had to face up to the reality of declining resources and the need for more fuel efficient cars-it's been bad for the consumer and even worse for the companies it's because you didn't have a capitalist economy you have the problems now.
It wasn't good capitalism to allow people to borrow money they couldn't pay back to buy property at overinflated prices-nor was it socialism (no private ownership or property would be allowed) it was just sheer greed and stupidity. There were plenty of people warning what would happen but they were just ignored as failing to understand that things were for the best in the best of all countries.
America might now perhaps go back to having a capitalist economy
posted by hoppy
Socialism is something that should only be discussed in a classroom, never put into practice.
maybe you should try discussing and teaching what capitalism and socialism actually are along with fascism and nazism before you start throwing labels around. In it's origins socialism is a ground roots cry for justice and equality and freedom from oppression. Maybe you could have a session on the common roots of the american revolution and the socialism.
posted by hoppy
Under Capitalism, a farmer making a living and feeding his family sees a field across the road from him for sale and he says to himself, "If I buy that field and farm it also, I can make more money and provide better for my family, my kids education etc.
Under Socialism, a farmer getting by on what the government allows him to keep, sees a field across the road and realizes that, if he were to buy that field (if in fact he could be allowed by the socialist government to buy it), and farmed the extra acreage, he would not get anything more to help his family as the extra would be taken by the government and handed to those "less fortunate". He therefore decides not to buy the field and realizes that if he works his land less, the socialists will still give him the same amount to live on so he becomes a slacker and lets the place go and it produces less for "the socialist network" but, the farmer doesn't care, he is still getting the same check so, why worry.
In the american version of it an agri business also sees the field for sale and outbids the poorer farmer (sadly the bank won't lend him the money-not enough collateral) who by the way has to buy all his seed from that same agribusiness and if he's been conned in to buying the GM version he can't even keep back some seed to plant the next years crop like he used to because he has to buy the fancy high yield from the seed merchant. He can't choose who he sells his crop to because a few food companies control the market and he basically has to accept the price they offer because rather than compete they operate a cartel to set the price ( they keep investigating and there are laws to prevent such things but it seems to drag on and on and who can afford the lawyers). But not to worry he can sell his farm to the big producer because when they amalgamate his farm with theirs they can produce more cheaply so long as they manage to stop any legislation that means they have to think about the long term consequences of using pesticides and herbicides indiscriminately but that's not a problem because they make big donations to all the political candidates so they're owed a few favours.
Meanwhile the farmer making a living can't make ends meet any more sells the farm but things are OK cos he gets a job labouring for the new owner of his farm who happens be a big agricultural company with great health benefits which he's going to need cos he has some strange kind of cancer-they say it might be due to some of the chemicals he has been spraying but he can't take part in the class action against the chemical company action on case he loses his job and besides everyone knows that is just a rumour spread by the tree huggers who are trying to ruin the farmers livelihood isn't it? Anyway he's dirt poor but that's his own fault for being a failure and not being able to make it-had a good start just too bad he lost the family farm
His son's doing well though. Pity he won't be be to inherit the family farm though but he's in the army and so long as he doesn't get killed or maimed in iraq he should be able to get a college education.
My favourite american socialist type protest song
YouTube - Johnny Cash - Sixteen Tons, 1987
Capitalism vs socialism
Seems to me, banks making loans to poor credit risks because of outside pressure caused some of the problem. Give everybody a piece of the pie, never mind they can't deal with the cost. In real life, you don't get nothing for nothing.
Capitalism vs socialism
hoppy;1192168 wrote: Seems to me, banks making loans to poor credit risks because of outside pressure caused some of the problem. Give everybody a piece of the pie, never mind they can't deal with the cost. In real life, you don't get nothing for nothing.
Sure, well if its capitalism, then let the banks fail and the share and bondholders lose their money instead of expecting the taxpayer to bail out a system that is fundamentally wrong. These institutions have all failed based on the rules they supposedly live by, so why should they expect anything now?
It will collapse the Capitalist economy as private banks are essentially capitalism, but thats the bind that all Capitalist countries are in now, you can't have a free market economy without a functioning system of credit and banking, but most of the major banks are now essentially bankrupt and living on state aid.
So what is the solution?
I still recognize that a mixed economy based on a correctly run capitalist system is the least worst of all the economic systems, and the one most in line with mine and your conception of personal liberty, unfortunately the finanicial system and banking system is so compromised that its very hard to see what is to be done now.
Sure, well if its capitalism, then let the banks fail and the share and bondholders lose their money instead of expecting the taxpayer to bail out a system that is fundamentally wrong. These institutions have all failed based on the rules they supposedly live by, so why should they expect anything now?
It will collapse the Capitalist economy as private banks are essentially capitalism, but thats the bind that all Capitalist countries are in now, you can't have a free market economy without a functioning system of credit and banking, but most of the major banks are now essentially bankrupt and living on state aid.
So what is the solution?
I still recognize that a mixed economy based on a correctly run capitalist system is the least worst of all the economic systems, and the one most in line with mine and your conception of personal liberty, unfortunately the finanicial system and banking system is so compromised that its very hard to see what is to be done now.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Capitalism vs socialism
Scrat;1192196 wrote: Hoppy. What you pointed out was the barebones dogma of capitalism. In a capitalist paradise a farmer needs roads to carry his produce to the processing plants, there needs to be a transportation system to distribute the resulting goods to the consumers. Who pays for that? Who organizes that?
Your view of the world is apparently as limited and simplistic as your post. You can't see beyond your own nose let alone farther than the other side of the road.
Great posts Galbally, GMC.
Thank you for the insults. It's always a pleasure when some know-it-all a$$hole responds to posts.
Your view of the world is apparently as limited and simplistic as your post. You can't see beyond your own nose let alone farther than the other side of the road.
Great posts Galbally, GMC.
Thank you for the insults. It's always a pleasure when some know-it-all a$$hole responds to posts.
Capitalism vs socialism
Scrat;1192220 wrote: I'm really getting tired of the word "losers" too. I've been hearing it a lot lately. I have a friend with 2 kids and a wife. They are both on unemployment and getting assitance from the state. They bought a house 4 years ago, it's worth less than what they signed on the line for. They they have a single Dodge van and a 1989 Nissan Sentra that's not running. Between the taxes and the cost of raising the children the house payment and the bill collectors they are essentially slaves.
THEY FOLLOWED THE RULES!! THEY OBEYED THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY!! THE FATHER SERVED HIS COUNTRY!! THEY BOTH WENT TO WORK EVERYDAY, NO DRUGS, NO BIG SCREEN TV, NO NEW SUVS
Now it looks as if they will be losing their home. Why the **** do they live in this country anyway? Why not live off the system? Doing it the right way has gotten them absolutely nothing but grief.
Capitalism isn't a failure because of lazy and stupid people. It's a failure because of greed, arrogance and the entitlement mentality at both ends of the spectrum.
This weekend I'm going to do this guy a favor, a socialist type favor. I'm going to give the guy $1000 dollars for that Sentra. I know what's wrong with it, it needs a new throttle position sensor a tuneup and a CV joint. It will keep me tinkering for awhile and it gets way better gas milage that either of our vehicles.
I'm going to go and do a socialist act , I'm going to go help out a friend and neighbor. It's how civilization began.
What you are doing is charity. Socialism and charity are not the same. It's in the book. Look it up.
THEY FOLLOWED THE RULES!! THEY OBEYED THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY!! THE FATHER SERVED HIS COUNTRY!! THEY BOTH WENT TO WORK EVERYDAY, NO DRUGS, NO BIG SCREEN TV, NO NEW SUVS
Now it looks as if they will be losing their home. Why the **** do they live in this country anyway? Why not live off the system? Doing it the right way has gotten them absolutely nothing but grief.
Capitalism isn't a failure because of lazy and stupid people. It's a failure because of greed, arrogance and the entitlement mentality at both ends of the spectrum.
This weekend I'm going to do this guy a favor, a socialist type favor. I'm going to give the guy $1000 dollars for that Sentra. I know what's wrong with it, it needs a new throttle position sensor a tuneup and a CV joint. It will keep me tinkering for awhile and it gets way better gas milage that either of our vehicles.
I'm going to go and do a socialist act , I'm going to go help out a friend and neighbor. It's how civilization began.
What you are doing is charity. Socialism and charity are not the same. It's in the book. Look it up.
Capitalism vs socialism
hoppy;1192168 wrote: Seems to me, banks making loans to poor credit risks because of outside pressure caused some of the problem. Give everybody a piece of the pie, never mind they can't deal with the cost. In real life, you don't get nothing for nothing.
Your economic policy makers started believing in a fantasy- one predicated on the assumption that you could generate wealth by selling money and that property would always go up in price. It wasn't a socialist fantasy or a capitalist one though- it was a monetarist one and it did happen in real life that you get something for nothing. Just ask one of the bankers how they managed to con everybody an get away with it. It's not socialism you need to worry about in America it's economists that try and improve on liberal capitalism without grasping the basics.
Socialism as in a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. is a utopian ideal that will never work as human nature gets in the way and always will. If you get away from the hang up about the economic side of it and concentrate on the basic question about what is fair and just in society and what is reasonable to expect the government you pay for to do and what is morally right that it do it's a whole different ballgame.
posted by hoppy
What you are doing is charity. Socialism and charity are not the same. It's in the book. Look it up.
Having to receive charity is degrading and tolerating a society where charity is the only option is pathetic. That is the reason the UK has a welfare state. We were no longer prepared to tolerate people being left to starve or homeless because they were unemployed or left to die because they couldn't afford a doctor but our social history is very different from the US. Surely one of the functions of government should be to help people out of poverty and look after them if they are sick or destitute -not because it is the charitable thing to do but because it is better for the community as a whole. To work towards a society where charity isn't needed is that such a bad thing? Most people are within three months of not being able to pay their mortgage-rent whatever. It's not actually that far to fall is it.
posted by galbally
So what is the solution?
I still recognize that a mixed economy based on a correctly run capitalist system is the least worst of all the economic systems, and the one most in line with mine and your conception of personal liberty, unfortunately the finanicial system and banking system is so compromised that its very hard to see what is to be done now.
So at heart you are a liberal capitalist at heart:sneaky: We need to stop lionising accountants, bankers and fund managers. They serve the economy doesn't mean they should be allowed to control it and while you are at it sack the economic theorists as well-or at least stop listening to them.
posted by scrat
I'm going to go and do a socialist act , I'm going to go help out a friend and neighbor. It's how civilization began.
Or a capitalist act-you are going to take advantage of the situation and the guys desperation to get a bargain.:sneaky:
Your economic policy makers started believing in a fantasy- one predicated on the assumption that you could generate wealth by selling money and that property would always go up in price. It wasn't a socialist fantasy or a capitalist one though- it was a monetarist one and it did happen in real life that you get something for nothing. Just ask one of the bankers how they managed to con everybody an get away with it. It's not socialism you need to worry about in America it's economists that try and improve on liberal capitalism without grasping the basics.
Socialism as in a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. is a utopian ideal that will never work as human nature gets in the way and always will. If you get away from the hang up about the economic side of it and concentrate on the basic question about what is fair and just in society and what is reasonable to expect the government you pay for to do and what is morally right that it do it's a whole different ballgame.
posted by hoppy
What you are doing is charity. Socialism and charity are not the same. It's in the book. Look it up.
Having to receive charity is degrading and tolerating a society where charity is the only option is pathetic. That is the reason the UK has a welfare state. We were no longer prepared to tolerate people being left to starve or homeless because they were unemployed or left to die because they couldn't afford a doctor but our social history is very different from the US. Surely one of the functions of government should be to help people out of poverty and look after them if they are sick or destitute -not because it is the charitable thing to do but because it is better for the community as a whole. To work towards a society where charity isn't needed is that such a bad thing? Most people are within three months of not being able to pay their mortgage-rent whatever. It's not actually that far to fall is it.
posted by galbally
So what is the solution?
I still recognize that a mixed economy based on a correctly run capitalist system is the least worst of all the economic systems, and the one most in line with mine and your conception of personal liberty, unfortunately the finanicial system and banking system is so compromised that its very hard to see what is to be done now.
So at heart you are a liberal capitalist at heart:sneaky: We need to stop lionising accountants, bankers and fund managers. They serve the economy doesn't mean they should be allowed to control it and while you are at it sack the economic theorists as well-or at least stop listening to them.
posted by scrat
I'm going to go and do a socialist act , I'm going to go help out a friend and neighbor. It's how civilization began.
Or a capitalist act-you are going to take advantage of the situation and the guys desperation to get a bargain.:sneaky:
Capitalism vs socialism
posted by scrat
Exactly, there was a lot of people with too much power and nobody to watch the cookie jar. They need regulation, just like children.
I'm not normally a violent person but sometimes a good kicking is in order.
Exactly, there was a lot of people with too much power and nobody to watch the cookie jar. They need regulation, just like children.
I'm not normally a violent person but sometimes a good kicking is in order.
Capitalism vs socialism
Scrat;1193227 wrote: I'd go further than that. There are some things I admire about Smokin' Joe. The problem is not just business, it's the politicians the media and many others. Our system is corrupt beyond redemption.
Who's smoking Joe?
Who's smoking Joe?
Capitalism vs socialism
Scrat;1193262 wrote: Smokin' Joe was a term used for J Stalin when the US media loved him oh so dearly.
The problem in America is the "captains of industry" (oligarchs) have no fear of being punished for their wrong doing. They and their ilk are above the laws normal people are subject to. If I were king there would be a lot of people paying a high price for what they have done to others.
J Stalin arguably was not a socialist-being a dictator and a socialist don't really go together do they?He does, however, highlight the fundamental flaw with socialism or at least the communist version of it namely that all you will do is swop one set of masters for another. He was one of the main reasons that there was not a communist revolution in the rest of europe as people knew only too well what was going on in russia. It tended to be the deluded middle class intellectuals that continued to admire russia in the UK
there's some good ideas in socialism but it's like all utopian political philosophies- unrealistic in expecting everybody to be better than they are. It's also incredibly patronising.
The problem in America is the "captains of industry" (oligarchs) have no fear of being punished for their wrong doing. They and their ilk are above the laws normal people are subject to. If I were king there would be a lot of people paying a high price for what they have done to others.
J Stalin arguably was not a socialist-being a dictator and a socialist don't really go together do they?He does, however, highlight the fundamental flaw with socialism or at least the communist version of it namely that all you will do is swop one set of masters for another. He was one of the main reasons that there was not a communist revolution in the rest of europe as people knew only too well what was going on in russia. It tended to be the deluded middle class intellectuals that continued to admire russia in the UK
there's some good ideas in socialism but it's like all utopian political philosophies- unrealistic in expecting everybody to be better than they are. It's also incredibly patronising.
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Capitalism vs socialism
Scrat;1192220 wrote: Capitalism isn't a failure because of lazy and stupid people. It's a failure because of greed, arrogance and the entitlement mentality at both ends of the spectrum.
Well, here's one thing we agree on, at least.
BTW, what you're doing for your neighbor isn't socialist. Recommending that he get a government grant to fix his car (or get a new one) might be, though.
Well, here's one thing we agree on, at least.
BTW, what you're doing for your neighbor isn't socialist. Recommending that he get a government grant to fix his car (or get a new one) might be, though.
Capitalism vs socialism
Scrat;1193597 wrote: I agree with what you are saying. Here lately I have come to have second thoughts about our system of government. I believe it has become very corrupt and unproductive in all of its forms and duties.
I don't believe that a purely socialist system or a purely capitalist system is going to serve any nation well. You need a combination of both and it needs to be free of fraud and corruption.
I think America needs a good flush down the sewer pipe of a whole lot of people that are running this country and its institutions. I think it will take a Stalin to get this country back on the right track.
Just out of curiosity have you ever read the wealth of nations?
I don't believe that a purely socialist system or a purely capitalist system is going to serve any nation well. You need a combination of both and it needs to be free of fraud and corruption.
I think America needs a good flush down the sewer pipe of a whole lot of people that are running this country and its institutions. I think it will take a Stalin to get this country back on the right track.
Just out of curiosity have you ever read the wealth of nations?
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Capitalism vs socialism
gmc;1193845 wrote: Just out of curiosity have you ever read the wealth of nations?
Smith: Wealth of Nations | Library of Economics and Liberty
I haven't, but I found the full text online.
Smith: Wealth of Nations | Library of Economics and Liberty
I haven't, but I found the full text online.
Capitalism vs socialism
Accountable;1193863 wrote: Smith: Wealth of Nations | Library of Economics and Liberty
I haven't, but I found the full text online.
tsk tsk and you a supposed capitalist.
How about Das Kapital?
I haven't, but I found the full text online.
tsk tsk and you a supposed capitalist.
How about Das Kapital?
Capitalism vs socialism
Scrat;1194009 wrote: Thanx gmc and AC, I have only read portions of the book. I put it in my favorites.
There should be an absolute minimum of interference of large institutions of any kind in the affairs of businesses of all sizes but what happens when business becomes government?
It's called corporatism
The Economic System of Corporatism
or fascism
Definitions of fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If I may use the words of one of your own presidents.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
“ The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
— Franklin D. Roosevelt, "Message from the President of the United States Transmitting Recommendations Relative to the Strengthening and Enforcement of Anti-trust Laws
Interestingly enough Eisenhower warned about the same kind of thing. He referred to the military/industrial complex.
I always think George Orwell showed tremendous prescience when he coined the term newspeak in 1984.
Newspeak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The basic idea behind Newspeak is to remove all shades of meaning from language, leaving simple dichotomies (pleasure and pain, happiness and sadness, goodthink and crimethink) which reinforce the total dominance of the State. Similarly, Newspeak root words served as both nouns and verbs, which allowed further reduction in the total number of words; for example,
The underlying theory of Newspeak is that if something can't be said, then it can't be thought. (See Sapir–Whorf hypothesis.) There is substantial argument in favor of this notion, in that most humans think by carrying on a dialogue in their heads. They tend to subvocalize their thoughts as they form them and manipulate them; most thought is actually a dialogue with oneself. When new and complex developments come along, new words are invented (or old words adapted) to hold the meme as a gestalt. This is why specialist vocabularies are particularly common – if instead one shrank the vocabulary, one would substantially reduce the memes available to manipulate during this thinking/vocalizing process.[citation needed]
The difference in connotation the word socialism has on this side of the atlantic from the US I find fascinating. Most Americans seem to have a visceral reaction to words like socialism and communism and don't think fascism ever existed in the states and when you point out the US is a liberal democracy and that socialism and capitalism have the same intellectual roots you get accused of all sorts of things.
To be honest I haven't actually read all of das capital myself cos it's heavy going and actually quite boring and apart from that it's basic premise is just too simplistic. It's like religion-if you only read one book you end up with a very odd view of things.
Now here is a political writer with real charisma:yh_rotfl
Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf
There should be an absolute minimum of interference of large institutions of any kind in the affairs of businesses of all sizes but what happens when business becomes government?
It's called corporatism
The Economic System of Corporatism
or fascism
Definitions of fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If I may use the words of one of your own presidents.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
“ The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
— Franklin D. Roosevelt, "Message from the President of the United States Transmitting Recommendations Relative to the Strengthening and Enforcement of Anti-trust Laws
Interestingly enough Eisenhower warned about the same kind of thing. He referred to the military/industrial complex.
I always think George Orwell showed tremendous prescience when he coined the term newspeak in 1984.
Newspeak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The basic idea behind Newspeak is to remove all shades of meaning from language, leaving simple dichotomies (pleasure and pain, happiness and sadness, goodthink and crimethink) which reinforce the total dominance of the State. Similarly, Newspeak root words served as both nouns and verbs, which allowed further reduction in the total number of words; for example,
The underlying theory of Newspeak is that if something can't be said, then it can't be thought. (See Sapir–Whorf hypothesis.) There is substantial argument in favor of this notion, in that most humans think by carrying on a dialogue in their heads. They tend to subvocalize their thoughts as they form them and manipulate them; most thought is actually a dialogue with oneself. When new and complex developments come along, new words are invented (or old words adapted) to hold the meme as a gestalt. This is why specialist vocabularies are particularly common – if instead one shrank the vocabulary, one would substantially reduce the memes available to manipulate during this thinking/vocalizing process.[citation needed]
The difference in connotation the word socialism has on this side of the atlantic from the US I find fascinating. Most Americans seem to have a visceral reaction to words like socialism and communism and don't think fascism ever existed in the states and when you point out the US is a liberal democracy and that socialism and capitalism have the same intellectual roots you get accused of all sorts of things.
To be honest I haven't actually read all of das capital myself cos it's heavy going and actually quite boring and apart from that it's basic premise is just too simplistic. It's like religion-if you only read one book you end up with a very odd view of things.
Now here is a political writer with real charisma:yh_rotfl
Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf
Capitalism vs socialism
I had about a 2 hour discussion with a Pharmacist I work with about capitalism vs socialism. He's recommended I read Animal Farm by George Orwell to gain a better understanding of his sentiment exactly...
Anyone read it? I told him I don't want to read something blatantly biased but he assured me it wasn't...Like anything with politics all it takes is a faint hint of subjectivity and the entire conversation turns into a **** flinging competition
I'll bring him the book Dude, where's my country by Michael Moore when I'm finished with it...If not him I most certainly will get a kick out of it...
Anyone read it? I told him I don't want to read something blatantly biased but he assured me it wasn't...Like anything with politics all it takes is a faint hint of subjectivity and the entire conversation turns into a **** flinging competition
I'll bring him the book Dude, where's my country by Michael Moore when I'm finished with it...If not him I most certainly will get a kick out of it...
Capitalism vs socialism
K.Snyder;1331906 wrote: I had about a 2 hour discussion with a Pharmacist I work with about capitalism vs socialism. He's recommended I read Animal Farm by George Orwell to gain a better understanding of his sentiment exactly...
Anyone read it? I told him I don't want to read something blatantly biased but he assured me it wasn't...Like anything with politics all it takes is a faint hint of subjectivity and the entire conversation turns into a **** flinging competition
I'll bring him the book Dude, where's my country by Michael Moore when I'm finished with it...If not him I most certainly will get a kick out of it...
Read it yes, also read 1984 if you haven't. Unbelievably that was banned in some parts of the united states because it was pro communist - presumably by people who hadn't read it. it's a warning about the perversion of socialism and where it can lead already party seen in nazi germany and communist russia.
Anyone read it? I told him I don't want to read something blatantly biased but he assured me it wasn't...Like anything with politics all it takes is a faint hint of subjectivity and the entire conversation turns into a **** flinging competition
I'll bring him the book Dude, where's my country by Michael Moore when I'm finished with it...If not him I most certainly will get a kick out of it...
Read it yes, also read 1984 if you haven't. Unbelievably that was banned in some parts of the united states because it was pro communist - presumably by people who hadn't read it. it's a warning about the perversion of socialism and where it can lead already party seen in nazi germany and communist russia.
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Capitalism vs socialism
gmc;1331911 wrote: [QUOTE=K.Snyder;1331906]I had about a 2 hour discussion with a Pharmacist I work with about capitalism vs socialism. He's recommended I read Animal Farm by George Orwell to gain a better understanding of his sentiment exactly...
Anyone read it? I told him I don't want to read something blatantly biased but he assured me it wasn't...Like anything with politics all it takes is a faint hint of subjectivity and the entire conversation turns into a **** flinging competition
I'll bring him the book Dude, where's my country by Michael Moore when I'm finished with it...If not him I most certainly will get a kick out of it...
Read it yes, also read 1984 if you haven't. Unbelievably that was banned in some parts of the united states because it was pro communist - presumably by people who hadn't read it. it's a warning about the perversion of socialism and where it can lead already party seen in nazi germany and communist russia.
Both of the books should be required reading. They are classics. Here they are for everyone's reading & viewing pleasure.
Animal Farm Free E-Book
1984 - Download Free eBook
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3984168940#
Anyone read it? I told him I don't want to read something blatantly biased but he assured me it wasn't...Like anything with politics all it takes is a faint hint of subjectivity and the entire conversation turns into a **** flinging competition
I'll bring him the book Dude, where's my country by Michael Moore when I'm finished with it...If not him I most certainly will get a kick out of it...
Read it yes, also read 1984 if you haven't. Unbelievably that was banned in some parts of the united states because it was pro communist - presumably by people who hadn't read it. it's a warning about the perversion of socialism and where it can lead already party seen in nazi germany and communist russia.
Both of the books should be required reading. They are classics. Here they are for everyone's reading & viewing pleasure.
Animal Farm Free E-Book
1984 - Download Free eBook
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3984168940#
Capitalism vs socialism
K.Snyder;1331906 wrote: I had about a 2 hour discussion with a Pharmacist I work with about capitalism vs socialism. He's recommended I read Animal Farm by George Orwell to gain a better understanding of his sentiment exactly... when I'm finished with it...If not him I most certainly will get a kick out of it...
It's an impressive fable. Orwell, it strikes me, displays his preference for Socialism together with his view that Capitalism is deeply entrenched and capable of seducing Socialist leaders into abandoning their remit in exchange for personal wealth. In Britain, New Labour provides an equally valid example. Animal Farm also poses the age-old question of who can adequately police the police if their political masters abuse their powers.
It's an impressive fable. Orwell, it strikes me, displays his preference for Socialism together with his view that Capitalism is deeply entrenched and capable of seducing Socialist leaders into abandoning their remit in exchange for personal wealth. In Britain, New Labour provides an equally valid example. Animal Farm also poses the age-old question of who can adequately police the police if their political masters abuse their powers.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Capitalism vs socialism
spot;1331934 wrote: It's an impressive fable. Orwell, it strikes me, displays his preference for Socialism together with his view that Capitalism is deeply entrenched and capable of seducing Socialist leaders into abandoning their remit in exchange for personal wealth. In Britain, New Labour provides an equally valid example. Animal Farm also poses the age-old question of who can adequately police the police if their political masters abuse their powers.
He was also thoproughly disenchanted with the way socialism had been perverted in russia and germany particularly. You can't blame capitalism though It's human nature. They both have the same intellectual roots. Socialism is an idealistic and paternalistic philosophy that has it's good points but was never going to work in reality. In those counties where you thought communism would take hold, the industrialised ones with a skilled and educated workforce is where it failed. most could see straight through to the flaw - all you would do is swop one set of masters for another, it took the intellectuals a bit longer to catch on. Then again perhaps the fear of communism drove the change that releases the social pressure. Maybe we should go back to the days when the ruling were terrified of the electorate sticking them against a wall and shooting them. Neither the US or the UK have capitalist economies at the moment - that's part of the problem, we've let the accountants and apparatchiks take charge.
He was also thoproughly disenchanted with the way socialism had been perverted in russia and germany particularly. You can't blame capitalism though It's human nature. They both have the same intellectual roots. Socialism is an idealistic and paternalistic philosophy that has it's good points but was never going to work in reality. In those counties where you thought communism would take hold, the industrialised ones with a skilled and educated workforce is where it failed. most could see straight through to the flaw - all you would do is swop one set of masters for another, it took the intellectuals a bit longer to catch on. Then again perhaps the fear of communism drove the change that releases the social pressure. Maybe we should go back to the days when the ruling were terrified of the electorate sticking them against a wall and shooting them. Neither the US or the UK have capitalist economies at the moment - that's part of the problem, we've let the accountants and apparatchiks take charge.
Capitalism vs socialism
True in theory, however, you show socialism in its extreme here and capitalism in a moderate way. To balance you example the capitalist would work like this:
The capitalist sees the plot of land for sale and sees the opportunity to make some money, but cannot afford it, so he goes to the bank and puts his own land up for collateral to borrow the money for the land he wants to buy. Realizing he could get more money by splitting up the land, he does so, and then pays the local politician a back-hander to have the land rezoned from agriculture to residential increasing the property value on the books.
He then approached the banks again with a new estimated value of the properly and borrows much more money base on the land he now owns and the estimated equity. He then starts building as many houses as possible on the land.
He then puts the houses on the market for as much as possible, to maximize his profit, but when the houses don’t sell because he actually is out in the middle of no where surrounded by farmland, he continuously reduces the prices of the house hoping to sell them off to pay back the over inflated loan he has from the banks.
When the bank call in the loans and the capitalist can’t repay, the banks repossess not only the new houses, but the farmers own original land and throws him and his family on the street.
Having bad loans on the books the bank finds itself in trouble and goes to the central government requesting a bale out, which the government agrees to backing the banks with the same taxes that were paid buy the farmer who is now on the street.
The banks are happy, the farmer is not, and the government receives political contributions from the bank.
You see, any form of social structure in its extreme fails.
The capitalist sees the plot of land for sale and sees the opportunity to make some money, but cannot afford it, so he goes to the bank and puts his own land up for collateral to borrow the money for the land he wants to buy. Realizing he could get more money by splitting up the land, he does so, and then pays the local politician a back-hander to have the land rezoned from agriculture to residential increasing the property value on the books.
He then approached the banks again with a new estimated value of the properly and borrows much more money base on the land he now owns and the estimated equity. He then starts building as many houses as possible on the land.
He then puts the houses on the market for as much as possible, to maximize his profit, but when the houses don’t sell because he actually is out in the middle of no where surrounded by farmland, he continuously reduces the prices of the house hoping to sell them off to pay back the over inflated loan he has from the banks.
When the bank call in the loans and the capitalist can’t repay, the banks repossess not only the new houses, but the farmers own original land and throws him and his family on the street.
Having bad loans on the books the bank finds itself in trouble and goes to the central government requesting a bale out, which the government agrees to backing the banks with the same taxes that were paid buy the farmer who is now on the street.
The banks are happy, the farmer is not, and the government receives political contributions from the bank.
You see, any form of social structure in its extreme fails.
Capitalism vs socialism
The capitalist con’t...
So the capitalist (now remember, the capitalist is the farmer because this is where it gets tricky…)
So the capitalist who is now living on the street with his family after losing all his capital investments, does not like the fact that he cannot feed his family. So one day, he goes to the State office and applies for Social Assistance.
He receives a welfare cheque and on the way out of the office a car drives by and a passenger throws an egg at him shouting, ‘ socialist scum bag…. Get a job’
Therefore:
If you are successful = capitalism
If you are not successful = socialism.
Isn’t it ironic that the most capitalistic businesses fighting for years for de-regulations of government ended up being the ones begging for government intervention to save them with tax payers money? hahahahahahahahaha
So the capitalist (now remember, the capitalist is the farmer because this is where it gets tricky…)
So the capitalist who is now living on the street with his family after losing all his capital investments, does not like the fact that he cannot feed his family. So one day, he goes to the State office and applies for Social Assistance.
He receives a welfare cheque and on the way out of the office a car drives by and a passenger throws an egg at him shouting, ‘ socialist scum bag…. Get a job’
Therefore:
If you are successful = capitalism
If you are not successful = socialism.
Isn’t it ironic that the most capitalistic businesses fighting for years for de-regulations of government ended up being the ones begging for government intervention to save them with tax payers money? hahahahahahahahaha
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Capitalism vs socialism
spot;1331934 wrote: It's an impressive fable. Orwell, it strikes me, displays his preference for Socialism together with his view that Capitalism is deeply entrenched and capable of seducing Socialist leaders into abandoning their remit in exchange for personal wealth. In Britain, New Labour provides an equally valid example. Animal Farm also poses the age-old question of who can adequately police the police if their political masters abuse their powers.
It's weird I got a totally different view from both animal farm and 1984 from all of you . Interesting.
I see it the same way Mikeinie
It's weird I got a totally different view from both animal farm and 1984 from all of you . Interesting.
I see it the same way Mikeinie
Capitalism vs socialism
fuzzywuzzy;1332173 wrote: It's weird I got a totally different view from both animal farm and 1984 from all of you . Interesting.How about the first paragraph of George Orwell's wikipedia article? Or do you think that's biased?George Orwell was an English author and journalist. His work is marked by keen intelligence and wit, a profound awareness of social injustice, an intense, revolutionary opposition to totalitarianism, a passion for clarity in language and a belief in democratic socialism.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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fuzzywuzzy
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Capitalism vs socialism
George Orwell wrote an article on wikipedia?????
Capitalism vs socialism
fuzzywuzzy;1332211 wrote: George Orwell wrote an article on wikipedia?????
No individual writes an article on wikipedia, the articles are collaborative. What I quoted was from "George Orwell's wikipedia article" much as I might have made reference to "New York's wikipedia article".
If you want George Orwell's credentials as a socialist and you don't want a third-party analysis the only remaining option is to read his own words. "Down And Out In Paris And London" followed by "The Road To Wigan Pier" would be a good introduction.
No individual writes an article on wikipedia, the articles are collaborative. What I quoted was from "George Orwell's wikipedia article" much as I might have made reference to "New York's wikipedia article".
If you want George Orwell's credentials as a socialist and you don't want a third-party analysis the only remaining option is to read his own words. "Down And Out In Paris And London" followed by "The Road To Wigan Pier" would be a good introduction.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Capitalism vs socialism
posted by miekienie
Isn’t it ironic that the most capitalistic businesses fighting for years for de-regulations of government ended up being the ones begging for government intervention to save them with tax payers money? hahahahahahahahaha
And you and we were daft enough to let them get away with it.
What makes you think america has a capitalist economy? It hasn't had one for several decades and arguably that is a big cause of the current problems. What you've had is corporate socialism and right wing governments a combination that is always going to fail it's people miserable. Capitalism and socialism have the same intellectual roots, communism is a variation on socialism they are not synonymous. Monetarism is the bastard child of a mind set that misses the point that to have an economy at all you need agriculture and industry, things to sell, and going all out for profit at any cost is a one way ticket off cliff.
Isn’t it ironic that the most capitalistic businesses fighting for years for de-regulations of government ended up being the ones begging for government intervention to save them with tax payers money? hahahahahahahahaha
And you and we were daft enough to let them get away with it.
What makes you think america has a capitalist economy? It hasn't had one for several decades and arguably that is a big cause of the current problems. What you've had is corporate socialism and right wing governments a combination that is always going to fail it's people miserable. Capitalism and socialism have the same intellectual roots, communism is a variation on socialism they are not synonymous. Monetarism is the bastard child of a mind set that misses the point that to have an economy at all you need agriculture and industry, things to sell, and going all out for profit at any cost is a one way ticket off cliff.
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Capitalism vs socialism
mikeinie;1332105 wrote: Isn't it ironic that the most capitalistic businesses fighting for years for de-regulations of government ended up being the ones begging for government intervention to save them with tax payers money? gmc;1332265 wrote: And you and we were daft enough to let them get away with it.
What makes you think america has a capitalist economy? It hasn't had one for several decades and arguably that is a big cause of the current problems. I agree that it's the major cause. Real capitalism balances risk and reward. Like an egg-stacking contest, too many people forget the point of the exercise and cheat to appear more skillful than the competition, in the process doing the one thing that defines defeat. Politicians likewise have forgotten their purpose, and forgot that they aren't in any contest at all.
Businesses should be allowed to fail, and should never receive assurances that anything else would be the case. We the voting public have allowed the symbiotic relationship between citizen and government to die and a symbiotic relationship between government and corporations to grow in its place.
If gov't politicians had not artificially cleared the field and propped up their benefactors, the housing bubble likely never would have happened, and the financial crash would have occurred long ago, possibly decades, and would probably have been more of a thump than a crash.
What makes you think america has a capitalist economy? It hasn't had one for several decades and arguably that is a big cause of the current problems. I agree that it's the major cause. Real capitalism balances risk and reward. Like an egg-stacking contest, too many people forget the point of the exercise and cheat to appear more skillful than the competition, in the process doing the one thing that defines defeat. Politicians likewise have forgotten their purpose, and forgot that they aren't in any contest at all.
Businesses should be allowed to fail, and should never receive assurances that anything else would be the case. We the voting public have allowed the symbiotic relationship between citizen and government to die and a symbiotic relationship between government and corporations to grow in its place.
If gov't politicians had not artificially cleared the field and propped up their benefactors, the housing bubble likely never would have happened, and the financial crash would have occurred long ago, possibly decades, and would probably have been more of a thump than a crash.
Capitalism vs socialism
You might find this of interest, it's from a british perspective but since it's your heritage as well. There are five of them. Tony Benn was a socialist from the days before new labour got hold.
YouTube - Big Ideas That Changed The World : Democracy-Tony Benn
YouTube - Big Ideas That Changed The World : Democracy-Tony Benn
Capitalism vs socialism
spot;1332190 wrote: How about the first paragraph of George Orwell's wikipedia article? Or do you think that's biased?George Orwell was an English author and journalist. His work is marked by keen intelligence and wit, a profound awareness of social injustice, an intense, revolutionary opposition to totalitarianism, a passion for clarity in language and a belief in democratic socialism.
Actually, if I could sum up my position on government I'd have said the exact same thing...I like him already
Actually, if I could sum up my position on government I'd have said the exact same thing...I like him already
Capitalism vs socialism
K.Snyder;1332402 wrote: Actually, if I could sum up my position on government I'd have said the exact same thing...I like him already
Just out of curiosity were you aware that america sent troops to fight in russia against the communists in 1918?
AEF Siberia
Just out of curiosity were you aware that america sent troops to fight in russia against the communists in 1918?
AEF Siberia
Capitalism vs socialism
gmc;1332430 wrote: Just out of curiosity were you aware that america sent troops to fight in russia against the communists in 1918?
AEF SiberiaWith what the peoples of Russia has had to endure throughout history I wouldn't feel it's appropriate to throw around my moral altruisms loosely without taking the time to read more extensively on the subjct. I can suggest that during such times that demand immediate action it's easy to not forsee what may potentually become of one's actions when invoked to attribute them.
"Communism" as defined by some is a far cry from what I have in mind.
AEF SiberiaWith what the peoples of Russia has had to endure throughout history I wouldn't feel it's appropriate to throw around my moral altruisms loosely without taking the time to read more extensively on the subjct. I can suggest that during such times that demand immediate action it's easy to not forsee what may potentually become of one's actions when invoked to attribute them.
"Communism" as defined by some is a far cry from what I have in mind.
Capitalism vs socialism
K.Snyder;1332595 wrote: With what the peoples of Russia has had to endure throughout history I wouldn't feel it's appropriate to throw around my moral altruisms loosely without taking the time to read more extensively on the subjct. I can suggest that during such times that demand immediate action it's easy to not forsee what may potentually become of one's actions when invoked to attribute them.
"Communism" as defined by some is a far cry from what I have in mind.
Communism as defined by stalin was a far cry from what anyone defines as communism. It's a flawed utopian ideology that will never work. There were a lot of american writers and the like around in communist russia. most european socialists had close contacts and were quickly aware of what was happening. At a ground roots level the disillusionment set in quite quickly, it was the intellectuals that hung on to the fantasy.
I was just curious to see if you were aware of what is a very obscure part of american military history. Some of the signs of the war to come with japan were already showing. Sometimes when you look back you can see oh yeah I know where that was going.
"Communism" as defined by some is a far cry from what I have in mind.
Communism as defined by stalin was a far cry from what anyone defines as communism. It's a flawed utopian ideology that will never work. There were a lot of american writers and the like around in communist russia. most european socialists had close contacts and were quickly aware of what was happening. At a ground roots level the disillusionment set in quite quickly, it was the intellectuals that hung on to the fantasy.
I was just curious to see if you were aware of what is a very obscure part of american military history. Some of the signs of the war to come with japan were already showing. Sometimes when you look back you can see oh yeah I know where that was going.
Capitalism vs socialism
To provide a degree of balance to that comment, Communism as defined by Stalin was a a great deal more socially responsible than anything happening in the West at that time. History will, I think, assess Stalin rather more favourably than the way some of us brought up immersed in Capitalist propaganda manage at the moment.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.