In Glasgow this week there was an ‘art’ exhibition in which people were allowed to deface a bible and write whatever they wanted on it, which included swearing, and anything else you wanted. Included in the exhibition was a video of a young woman tearing paged from a bible and stuffing her bra with them.
As many of you know, I have expressed my religious beliefs here, which even I have not yet even defined. I am not an atheist, but I do not believe in earthly religious institutions, but this does not mean that I do not respect them, which I do.
I guess the first question is: is this really art? I mean come on, defacing a religions holy book considered art?
The second question is this: How did the Catholic religion get to the point where there is no respect shown and displayed so openly and have such a minimal response. Can you imagine if this artist did this to the Koran? He would be dead by now along with his wife and his kids… If it was done to the Torah there would be cries of anti-Semitism, but do this to the Catholic Church and nothing…
I think that this ‘art; display is disgusting, disrespectful of people’s beliefs and never should have been allowed.
Gallery’s invitation to deface the Bible brings obscene response -Times Online
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Defacing of Bible: Art???
That only reinforces my belief that the closer to end times we get, the more barbaric and idiotic people behave.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Well i would not say it was 'Art' but i'm often confused as to the definition of art. Ive seen paintings sell for thousands that i believe i could have done just as good a job of :-2
I think yes it is disrespectful to religious people's beliefs but if others feel they need to publicly write eg: 'i'm gay and proud' in a bible because the bible disrespects them, well, who's really wrong there.
I think yes it is disrespectful to religious people's beliefs but if others feel they need to publicly write eg: 'i'm gay and proud' in a bible because the bible disrespects them, well, who's really wrong there.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
It has nothing to do with religion, although it is using the Bible as its 'canvas'.
It is all about respect, which strangely is what the bible and most other religions teaches, it is also a reaction to the uproar over the koran.
It just proves we have no moral direction these days, whatever moral code you adopt it is better than the absence of any code.
It is all about respect, which strangely is what the bible and most other religions teaches, it is also a reaction to the uproar over the koran.
It just proves we have no moral direction these days, whatever moral code you adopt it is better than the absence of any code.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Defacing of Bible: Art???
It's a book for goodness sake. If someone ripping up your book somehow makes you less of a Christian you probably weren't much of one to begin with. Given the propensity of the church to go in for book burning and trying to stop things being published I don't suppose they are capable of appreciating the irony of their complaining. People who take the bible and the koran literally are some of the most dangerous people on the planet.
Whether it is art or not is another question perhaps. I won't be going to see it.
Yes we should do it to the koran as well. It's ridiculous that religion can demand that people be imprisoned for daring to treat a book with disrespect. It is the contents that matter not the container, if the message is really that vital it will not be lost.
It's a free country-don't go to the exhibition if it bothers you that much.
Whether it is art or not is another question perhaps. I won't be going to see it.
Yes we should do it to the koran as well. It's ridiculous that religion can demand that people be imprisoned for daring to treat a book with disrespect. It is the contents that matter not the container, if the message is really that vital it will not be lost.
It's a free country-don't go to the exhibition if it bothers you that much.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Bruv;1222920 wrote: It has nothing to do with religion, although it is using the Bible as its 'canvas'.
It is all about respect, which strangely is what the bible and most other religions teaches, it is also a reaction to the uproar over the koran.
It just proves we have no moral direction these days, whatever moral code you adopt it is better than the absence of any code.
Good reply
It is all about respect, which strangely is what the bible and most other religions teaches, it is also a reaction to the uproar over the koran.
It just proves we have no moral direction these days, whatever moral code you adopt it is better than the absence of any code.
Good reply
Defacing of Bible: Art???
gmc;1222923 wrote: It's a book for goodness sake. If someone ripping up your book somehow makes you less of a Christian you probably weren't much of one to begin with. Given the propensity of the church to go in for book burning and trying to stop things being published I don't suppose they are capable of appreciating the irony of their complaining. People who take the bible and the koran literally are some of the most dangerous people on the planet.
Whether it is art or not is another question perhaps. I won't be going to see it.
Yes we should do it to the koran as well. It's ridiculous that religion can demand that people be imprisoned for daring to treat a book with disrespect. It is the contents that matter not the container, if the message is really that vital it will not be lost.
It's a free country-don't go to the exhibition if it bothers you that much.
Interesting, and I generally agree with you.
I am not sure if the last question was a general one, or directed to me.
I did not go see it, and would not go see it, however it does not bother me that much either, I was wondering more how it doesn’t seem to bother those who hold the bible as sacred that much, when other religions would be protesting in the streets. But maybe that is the fundamental difference between the Catholic Religion and others, more tolerance. (by comparison to other religions that is.)
Whether it is art or not is another question perhaps. I won't be going to see it.
Yes we should do it to the koran as well. It's ridiculous that religion can demand that people be imprisoned for daring to treat a book with disrespect. It is the contents that matter not the container, if the message is really that vital it will not be lost.
It's a free country-don't go to the exhibition if it bothers you that much.
Interesting, and I generally agree with you.
I am not sure if the last question was a general one, or directed to me.
I did not go see it, and would not go see it, however it does not bother me that much either, I was wondering more how it doesn’t seem to bother those who hold the bible as sacred that much, when other religions would be protesting in the streets. But maybe that is the fundamental difference between the Catholic Religion and others, more tolerance. (by comparison to other religions that is.)
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Bill Sikes
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- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Defacing of Bible: Art???
gmc;1222923 wrote: It's a book for goodness sake. snip
Yes we should do it to the koran as well. It's ridiculous that religion can demand that people be imprisoned for daring to treat a book with disrespect. It is the contents that matter not the container, if the message is really that vital it will not be lost.
It's a free country-don't go to the exhibition if it bothers you that much.
It's also, to many people, a way of life - regardless of which religion you talk about. To disrupt someone's way of life by insulting what they believe is unpleasant. If you think this should be done to any holy books, try going into a community of believers, & deface their book. Come to that, try going to America, and defacing a flag, or something. Youd soon find out who's got the right of it.
You'r usually against the effects that you believe religions have on people's lives - and here you are recommending that people make the differences worse. You can't have it both ways.
Yes we should do it to the koran as well. It's ridiculous that religion can demand that people be imprisoned for daring to treat a book with disrespect. It is the contents that matter not the container, if the message is really that vital it will not be lost.
It's a free country-don't go to the exhibition if it bothers you that much.
It's also, to many people, a way of life - regardless of which religion you talk about. To disrupt someone's way of life by insulting what they believe is unpleasant. If you think this should be done to any holy books, try going into a community of believers, & deface their book. Come to that, try going to America, and defacing a flag, or something. Youd soon find out who's got the right of it.
You'r usually against the effects that you believe religions have on people's lives - and here you are recommending that people make the differences worse. You can't have it both ways.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
If it were only "just a book" then why not use a dictionary? The bible, in this case, is a symbol of the beliefs of a great many people. To do that is crapping in their faces and should be treated as such.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
mikeinie;1222930 wrote: Interesting, and I generally agree with you.
I am not sure if the last question was a general one, or directed to me.
I did not go see it, and would not go see it, however it does not bother me that much either, I was wondering more how it doesn’t seem to bother those who hold the bible as sacred that much, when other religions would be protesting in the streets. But maybe that is the fundamental difference between the Catholic Religion and others, more tolerance. (by comparison to other religions that is.)
No it was a general one.
posted by bill sikes
It's also, to many people, a way of life - regardless of which religion you talk about. To disrupt someone's way of life by insulting what they believe is unpleasant. If you think this should be done to any holy books, try going into a community of believers, & deface their book. Come to that, try going to America, and defacing a flag, or something. Youd soon find out who's got the right of it.
You'r usually against the effects that you believe religions have on people's lives - and here you are recommending that people make the differences worse. You can't have it both ways.
Today 03:23 PM
How does it disrupt their way of life? They don't have to go see it. Besides when it comes to religion why is it unacceptable to say you find the beliefs ridiculous yet the church feels free to disparage other religious belief as it sees fit. Just look at some of the comments made by so called Christians about followers of that false god Allah. Being Glasgow of course there is the perennial dispute between the orange order and that idolatrous church of Rome. They fight over whether it is right to worship an image or not and complain when outsiders object when their bigotry spills on to the streets. The free church of course looks down it's nose at everybody.
The church for instance (as in some of it's follower generally in this case) feels it has the right to try and ban the teaching of evolution in schools-particularly, it seems, in america-and ride roughshod over the beliefs of non-believers. Some even believe if you are not a Christian you cannot be a trustworthy person. Non-believers have as much right to try and prevent the teaching of mythology as fact as believers have to teach their mythology as if it was true. The biggest difference is in a secular society the churches are free to proselytise as much as they want. Given the power many so called Christians would have us all on our knees praying to god whether people want to or not.
If Christians want to burn copies of the theory of evolution by all means let them. It won't make the words on the pages any less valuable.
I wouldn't actually insult someone's religious beliefs. However, if those same believers take anyone not sharing their beliefs and expressing the opinion that it is a load of bunkum as an insult then I'm afraid that is their problem. If I disagreed with their political beliefs that would not be taken as a personal insult and it would in no way affect their ability to continue with their belief. If a religious person calls me idiot and tells me I am going to hell should I take offence at the personal insult? Should I belt him one do you think? Yet I am supposed to accept their right to jail me for blasphemy or apologise for insulting their religion.
This idea that expressing a non belief in a particular religion is somehow an insult is a ridiculous one. It's also a dangerous one. We have gone past the days when religious dissenters got burned at the stake. it would be a great pity if we allow it to creep back in by the back door. OK so burning at the stake might not occur nowadays but that kind of mentality is still with us and it's a baleful one we shouldn't allow room to grow.
I have a right to say what I like about religion and I'm afraid I will come in to conflict with anyone that tells me I can't or should not express an opinion about something I find unbelievable. The comments about how they wouldn't dare do that with the Koran speak volumes.(no pun intended) why should we live in fear of offending religion in a free society-what are they going to do and if they are prepared to kill in the name of their religion why on earth should anyone respect them if they want us to live in fear of them?
Come to that, try going to America, and defacing a flag, or something. Youd soon find out who's got the right of it.
What might is right is it? The thing is it's a symbol. some would take it as a deliberate insult. I've got no reason to deliberately provoke Americans though their insistence on it being treated with respect I find ridiculous. Plenty people burn British flags in protest-we take the eminently sensible view that who cares what a bunch of foreigners think. We've progressed beyond that knee jerk blind patriotism my country right or wrong mentality it's sad some Americans have not.
I've had the **** taken out of my nationality on numerous occasions and deliberate provocation on many others. It's not the intended insult that matter buts how you choose to view or deal with it. Somebody insulting me or my beliefs or calling me an idiot affects me not at all nor does it detract from my sense of self worth. It's a pity so many religious people have such little faith they get worked up at the least perceived insult.
Whether it's art though, that's a moot point. but if one of the the purposes of art is to be provocative then it seems to have succeeded.
Is telling a religious joke deliberate provocation? Dave Allen got excommunicated for jokes about the pope but the pope never felt the need to excommunicate any catholic terrorists. Islamic terrorist seem to believe they will go to paradise. Protestant terrorists no doubt went to church in sunday to thank god they weren't catholic.
I am not sure if the last question was a general one, or directed to me.
I did not go see it, and would not go see it, however it does not bother me that much either, I was wondering more how it doesn’t seem to bother those who hold the bible as sacred that much, when other religions would be protesting in the streets. But maybe that is the fundamental difference between the Catholic Religion and others, more tolerance. (by comparison to other religions that is.)
No it was a general one.
posted by bill sikes
It's also, to many people, a way of life - regardless of which religion you talk about. To disrupt someone's way of life by insulting what they believe is unpleasant. If you think this should be done to any holy books, try going into a community of believers, & deface their book. Come to that, try going to America, and defacing a flag, or something. Youd soon find out who's got the right of it.
You'r usually against the effects that you believe religions have on people's lives - and here you are recommending that people make the differences worse. You can't have it both ways.
Today 03:23 PM
How does it disrupt their way of life? They don't have to go see it. Besides when it comes to religion why is it unacceptable to say you find the beliefs ridiculous yet the church feels free to disparage other religious belief as it sees fit. Just look at some of the comments made by so called Christians about followers of that false god Allah. Being Glasgow of course there is the perennial dispute between the orange order and that idolatrous church of Rome. They fight over whether it is right to worship an image or not and complain when outsiders object when their bigotry spills on to the streets. The free church of course looks down it's nose at everybody.
The church for instance (as in some of it's follower generally in this case) feels it has the right to try and ban the teaching of evolution in schools-particularly, it seems, in america-and ride roughshod over the beliefs of non-believers. Some even believe if you are not a Christian you cannot be a trustworthy person. Non-believers have as much right to try and prevent the teaching of mythology as fact as believers have to teach their mythology as if it was true. The biggest difference is in a secular society the churches are free to proselytise as much as they want. Given the power many so called Christians would have us all on our knees praying to god whether people want to or not.
If Christians want to burn copies of the theory of evolution by all means let them. It won't make the words on the pages any less valuable.
I wouldn't actually insult someone's religious beliefs. However, if those same believers take anyone not sharing their beliefs and expressing the opinion that it is a load of bunkum as an insult then I'm afraid that is their problem. If I disagreed with their political beliefs that would not be taken as a personal insult and it would in no way affect their ability to continue with their belief. If a religious person calls me idiot and tells me I am going to hell should I take offence at the personal insult? Should I belt him one do you think? Yet I am supposed to accept their right to jail me for blasphemy or apologise for insulting their religion.
This idea that expressing a non belief in a particular religion is somehow an insult is a ridiculous one. It's also a dangerous one. We have gone past the days when religious dissenters got burned at the stake. it would be a great pity if we allow it to creep back in by the back door. OK so burning at the stake might not occur nowadays but that kind of mentality is still with us and it's a baleful one we shouldn't allow room to grow.
I have a right to say what I like about religion and I'm afraid I will come in to conflict with anyone that tells me I can't or should not express an opinion about something I find unbelievable. The comments about how they wouldn't dare do that with the Koran speak volumes.(no pun intended) why should we live in fear of offending religion in a free society-what are they going to do and if they are prepared to kill in the name of their religion why on earth should anyone respect them if they want us to live in fear of them?
Come to that, try going to America, and defacing a flag, or something. Youd soon find out who's got the right of it.
What might is right is it? The thing is it's a symbol. some would take it as a deliberate insult. I've got no reason to deliberately provoke Americans though their insistence on it being treated with respect I find ridiculous. Plenty people burn British flags in protest-we take the eminently sensible view that who cares what a bunch of foreigners think. We've progressed beyond that knee jerk blind patriotism my country right or wrong mentality it's sad some Americans have not.
I've had the **** taken out of my nationality on numerous occasions and deliberate provocation on many others. It's not the intended insult that matter buts how you choose to view or deal with it. Somebody insulting me or my beliefs or calling me an idiot affects me not at all nor does it detract from my sense of self worth. It's a pity so many religious people have such little faith they get worked up at the least perceived insult.
Whether it's art though, that's a moot point. but if one of the the purposes of art is to be provocative then it seems to have succeeded.
Is telling a religious joke deliberate provocation? Dave Allen got excommunicated for jokes about the pope but the pope never felt the need to excommunicate any catholic terrorists. Islamic terrorist seem to believe they will go to paradise. Protestant terrorists no doubt went to church in sunday to thank god they weren't catholic.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Definitely not art but I think it was more thoughtless than a deliberate insult - the "artist" did not consider what sort of comments might be written. Those writing the trash are the ones doing the insulting.
Given that, I find defacing any book offensive, the scriptures (of any religion) doubly so.
Also, it would be worth asking why people from a Christian background should feel the need to deface the Bible?
Given that, I find defacing any book offensive, the scriptures (of any religion) doubly so.
Also, it would be worth asking why people from a Christian background should feel the need to deface the Bible?
Defacing of Bible: Art???
gmc;1222955 wrote: If Christians want to burn copies of the theory of evolution by all means let them. It won't make the words on the pages any less valuable.
I wouldn't actually insult someone's religious beliefs. However, if those same believers take anyone not sharing their beliefs and expressing the opinion that it is a load of bunkum as an insult then I'm afraid that is their problem.
Well said. I'm in complete agreement.
I wouldn't actually insult someone's religious beliefs. However, if those same believers take anyone not sharing their beliefs and expressing the opinion that it is a load of bunkum as an insult then I'm afraid that is their problem.
Well said. I'm in complete agreement.
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
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along-for-the-ride
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Defacing of Bible: Art???
At what point in history did it become "allright" to be disrespectful? There is no religion or institution or government or culture that is without it's faults.........they were all formed by human beings......who are indeed fallible. But all these "things" deserve a certain amount of respect.
Art is in the eye of the beholder. If there is no appreciative audience, there is no art. JMO
Art is in the eye of the beholder. If there is no appreciative audience, there is no art. JMO
Life is a Highway. Let's share the Commute.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Bryn Mawr;1222962 wrote: Also, it would be worth asking why people from a Christian background should feel the need to deface the Bible?
It may be a reaction to a childhood of enforced belief in a religion (any religion) in which the dogmas aren't supported by the evidence.
It may be a reaction to a childhood of enforced belief in a religion (any religion) in which the dogmas aren't supported by the evidence.
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Bryn Mawr;1222962 wrote: Definitely not art but I think it was more thoughtless than a deliberate insult - the "artist" did not consider what sort of comments might be written. Those writing the trash are the ones doing the insulting.
Given that, I find defacing any book offensive, the scriptures (of any religion) doubly so.
Also, it would be worth asking why people from a Christian background should feel the need to deface the Bible?
good point actually. It looks like he didn't set the exhibit up to provoke the kind of response that they actually got.
The exhibit, Untitled 2009, was proposed by the Metropolitan Community Church, which said that the idea was to reclaim the Bible as a sacred text. But to the horror of many Christians, including the community church, visitors have daubed its pages with comments such as “This is all sexist pish, so disregard it all.†A contributor wrote on the first page of Genesis: “I am Bi, Female & Proud. I want no god who is disappointed in this.â€
I suppose many devout Christians have made life hellish for those around them. The phrase trust me I'm a priest never used to have sexual connotations did it. and Presbyterian church has it's fair share of bigoted hypocrites as well-love thy neighbour except for those sorts of people. Misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted christians eh-if only they followed the teaching of the late JC and didn't judge.
Given that, I find defacing any book offensive, the scriptures (of any religion) doubly so.
Also, it would be worth asking why people from a Christian background should feel the need to deface the Bible?
good point actually. It looks like he didn't set the exhibit up to provoke the kind of response that they actually got.
The exhibit, Untitled 2009, was proposed by the Metropolitan Community Church, which said that the idea was to reclaim the Bible as a sacred text. But to the horror of many Christians, including the community church, visitors have daubed its pages with comments such as “This is all sexist pish, so disregard it all.†A contributor wrote on the first page of Genesis: “I am Bi, Female & Proud. I want no god who is disappointed in this.â€
I suppose many devout Christians have made life hellish for those around them. The phrase trust me I'm a priest never used to have sexual connotations did it. and Presbyterian church has it's fair share of bigoted hypocrites as well-love thy neighbour except for those sorts of people. Misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted christians eh-if only they followed the teaching of the late JC and didn't judge.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Art is just another form of expression. It can be used to convey an emotion or to invoke an emotional reaction.
Yet, what happened to this Bible, put on display for people to identify themselves with it, is clearly not what the exhibitors expected. There again, it doesn't appear to me that the people that wrote the abusive and obscene remarks in the exhibited Bible were churchgoers or followers of any particular religion or faith.
I wouldn't blame the exhibitors for what they attempted to do just that it was the wrong place to do it. I would think that any visitors who might have wanted to add something to 'write themselves back into the Bible' would have been put off by a single offensive comment.
Yet, what happened to this Bible, put on display for people to identify themselves with it, is clearly not what the exhibitors expected. There again, it doesn't appear to me that the people that wrote the abusive and obscene remarks in the exhibited Bible were churchgoers or followers of any particular religion or faith.
I wouldn't blame the exhibitors for what they attempted to do just that it was the wrong place to do it. I would think that any visitors who might have wanted to add something to 'write themselves back into the Bible' would have been put off by a single offensive comment.
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Bill Sikes
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Defacing of Bible: Art???
gmc;1223063 wrote: Misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted christians eh-if only they followed the teaching of the late JC and didn't judge.
And what a judgement *that* is. Why is it that every time anyone mentions religion, you're up 'n' at em, especially Christians, but also others, as shown in this thread. You've a real thing about it, haven't you. I'm beginning to wonder whether you were chased around the belfry by a priest, and tolled off.
And what a judgement *that* is. Why is it that every time anyone mentions religion, you're up 'n' at em, especially Christians, but also others, as shown in this thread. You've a real thing about it, haven't you. I'm beginning to wonder whether you were chased around the belfry by a priest, and tolled off.
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fuzzywuzzy
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Defacing of Bible: Art???
What an interesting topic thanks MiKeinie
when did it become okay to be disrespectful.? I remember that books were burned all over Europe during the Nazi regeme. I remember when books records and photographs of elvis and the beatles were burned in America during the 50's and 60's. The Taliban made Afghanies burn their own family photos and banned people from having them. you cannot take the Bible into Islamic states, even Christians holding a bible are looked upon as "a bit diferent" if they regulary hold onto or read the bible. some see the bible as evidence that blacks are inferior and used it to excuse slavery. Men have held the bible in their pockets during war when they kill their human brothers.
There's a lot of hate surrounding that book
What this art on one level means to me. People all around the world put the bible down accuse religions of horrendous things (some actually have a point ) We make jokes and stupid jokes about priests and nuns (usually from the homosexual world)
but we all (okay not all of us but most without thinking of it), SWEAR ON THE BIBLE.
Art is what the individual makes of it. the artist has a message but whether or not the individual sees that message is irrellevent.
I'll have another look and come up with some other completely different point or meaning to the art.
when did it become okay to be disrespectful.? I remember that books were burned all over Europe during the Nazi regeme. I remember when books records and photographs of elvis and the beatles were burned in America during the 50's and 60's. The Taliban made Afghanies burn their own family photos and banned people from having them. you cannot take the Bible into Islamic states, even Christians holding a bible are looked upon as "a bit diferent" if they regulary hold onto or read the bible. some see the bible as evidence that blacks are inferior and used it to excuse slavery. Men have held the bible in their pockets during war when they kill their human brothers.
There's a lot of hate surrounding that book
What this art on one level means to me. People all around the world put the bible down accuse religions of horrendous things (some actually have a point ) We make jokes and stupid jokes about priests and nuns (usually from the homosexual world)
but we all (okay not all of us but most without thinking of it), SWEAR ON THE BIBLE.
Art is what the individual makes of it. the artist has a message but whether or not the individual sees that message is irrellevent.
I'll have another look and come up with some other completely different point or meaning to the art.
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fuzzywuzzy
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- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
Defacing of Bible: Art???
This says it all.
YouTube - The Chasers - Do Americans Agree That Bible is True?
YouTube - The Chasers - Do Americans Agree That Bible is True?
Defacing of Bible: Art???
fuzzywuzzy;1223111 wrote: What an interesting topic thanks MiKeinie
when did it become okay to be disrespectful.? I remember that books were burned all over Europe during the Nazi regeme. I remember when books records and photographs of elvis and the beatles were burned in America during the 50's and 60's. The Taliban made Afghanies burn their own family photos and banned people from having them. you cannot take the Bible into Islamic states, even Christians holding a bible are looked upon as "a bit diferent" if they regulary hold onto or read the bible. some see the bible as evidence that blacks are inferior and used it to excuse slavery. Men have held the bible in their pockets during war when they kill their human brothers.
There's a lot of hate surrounding that book
What this art on one level means to me. People all around the world put the bible down accuse religions of horrendous things (some actually have a point ) We make jokes and stupid jokes about priests and nuns (usually from the homosexual world)
but we all (okay not all of us but most without thinking of it), SWEAR ON THE BIBLE.
Art is what the individual makes of it. the artist has a message but whether or not the individual sees that message is irrellevent.
I'll have another look and come up with some other completely different point or meaning to the art.
I must find the reference. Unfortunately, I've not been able to sort through my books yet. The first printed copies of the Bible made avaiilable for the public by a theologian academic by the name of Potter were burned by the church ministers on the basis that it was too sacred for the common folk to have their own copies.
when did it become okay to be disrespectful.? I remember that books were burned all over Europe during the Nazi regeme. I remember when books records and photographs of elvis and the beatles were burned in America during the 50's and 60's. The Taliban made Afghanies burn their own family photos and banned people from having them. you cannot take the Bible into Islamic states, even Christians holding a bible are looked upon as "a bit diferent" if they regulary hold onto or read the bible. some see the bible as evidence that blacks are inferior and used it to excuse slavery. Men have held the bible in their pockets during war when they kill their human brothers.
There's a lot of hate surrounding that book
What this art on one level means to me. People all around the world put the bible down accuse religions of horrendous things (some actually have a point ) We make jokes and stupid jokes about priests and nuns (usually from the homosexual world)
but we all (okay not all of us but most without thinking of it), SWEAR ON THE BIBLE.
Art is what the individual makes of it. the artist has a message but whether or not the individual sees that message is irrellevent.
I'll have another look and come up with some other completely different point or meaning to the art.
I must find the reference. Unfortunately, I've not been able to sort through my books yet. The first printed copies of the Bible made avaiilable for the public by a theologian academic by the name of Potter were burned by the church ministers on the basis that it was too sacred for the common folk to have their own copies.
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fuzzywuzzy
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Defacing of Bible: Art???
I think you're right . Luther also pushed for the common folk to have their own copies.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
fuzzywuzzy;1223137 wrote: I think you're right . Luther also pushed for the common folk to have their own copies.
I'll see if I can dig out the book for tomorrow.
I'll see if I can dig out the book for tomorrow.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
When I was a child, I was always taught to respect property. I was always told that to damage a book, any book, was a dreadful thing to do - all books were valuable in one way or another.
I have always thought that to damage a book was totally wrong, and to deliberately damage or destroy any book was a terrible thing to do. To even consider the mutilation of a religious book in the name of 'art' just shows the perpetrators as being totally ignorant, brainless idiots ! No I am not a religious person, but hopefully, I respect books. I do not respect the people who deliberately mutilate them.
I have always thought that to damage a book was totally wrong, and to deliberately damage or destroy any book was a terrible thing to do. To even consider the mutilation of a religious book in the name of 'art' just shows the perpetrators as being totally ignorant, brainless idiots ! No I am not a religious person, but hopefully, I respect books. I do not respect the people who deliberately mutilate them.
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Defacing of Bible: Art???
G#Gill;1223201 wrote: When I was a child, I was always taught to respect property. I was always told that to damage a book, any book, was a dreadful thing to do - all books were valuable in one way or another.
I have always thought that to damage a book was totally wrong, and to deliberately damage or destroy any book was a terrible thing to do. To even consider the mutilation of a religious book in the name of 'art' just shows the perpetrators as being totally ignorant, brainless idiots ! No I am not a religious person, but hopefully, I respect books. I do not respect the people who deliberately mutilate them.
An interesting point G#. I too was taught not only that it was wrong to damage a book, my 11 year class (at least) was shown how to handle a book - even how to turn the pages. That's always stayed with me and it was a very pertinent lesson in my mind. It helps to preserve a book if it is treated properly.
On the other hand, I have learnt since that books have often been written in. For instance, researchers and students will write notes into the margins. The Bible was no different and I believe that the Concordance developed because of the copious notes written into the Bible's margins. Again, I will have to find my book to confirm this and I will try and look for it today to confirm an earlier post I made on this thread.
From what I can tell from the news article, the exhibitors never expected anything more than this. Definitely not the offensive comments they did find written.
I have always thought that to damage a book was totally wrong, and to deliberately damage or destroy any book was a terrible thing to do. To even consider the mutilation of a religious book in the name of 'art' just shows the perpetrators as being totally ignorant, brainless idiots ! No I am not a religious person, but hopefully, I respect books. I do not respect the people who deliberately mutilate them.
An interesting point G#. I too was taught not only that it was wrong to damage a book, my 11 year class (at least) was shown how to handle a book - even how to turn the pages. That's always stayed with me and it was a very pertinent lesson in my mind. It helps to preserve a book if it is treated properly.
On the other hand, I have learnt since that books have often been written in. For instance, researchers and students will write notes into the margins. The Bible was no different and I believe that the Concordance developed because of the copious notes written into the Bible's margins. Again, I will have to find my book to confirm this and I will try and look for it today to confirm an earlier post I made on this thread.
From what I can tell from the news article, the exhibitors never expected anything more than this. Definitely not the offensive comments they did find written.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Bill Sikes;1223106 wrote: And what a judgement *that* is. Why is it that every time anyone mentions religion, you're up 'n' at em, especially Christians, but also others, as shown in this thread. You've a real thing about it, haven't you. I'm beginning to wonder whether you were chased around the belfry by a priest, and tolled off.
Well why shouldn't I-If Christians can be passionate about their beliefs why can't a free thinker? Especially when it is the I am holier than thou brigade that seem to believe no one should have or be able to express any measure of disbelief.
As it happens most of the posters on here are christian so yes most comments are aimed at Christians. I will quite happily discourse with Muslims as well. I view it as a generic debate so any comments are not aimed at any particular individual unless I am addressing a particular point such as the one you just asked.
Why is it many religious people cannot discuss religion without producing the argument that
1)You are disrespecting my beliefs
2)expecting the bible to be taken as the unquestioned word of god and quoting bits out of it as if that settles everything
3)non-believer should not be allowed to comment at all on religious topics.
I was brought up in the free church of scotland-(also known as the smile and the devil get in brigade) we don't have priests appointed in the same way as the catholic or episcopalian church. When I was seven they built a new school for the catholics children-suddenly many of my friends were going to a separate school because of their religion-I remember asking if that meant they weren't christian.
Six months later fights between the proddies and the papes were a regular occurrence between children that didn't really understand what it was all about.
Left alone children might fight but generally they will end up getting along very well together. Religion takes children and teaches them that other children who do not believe as they do or who have a different lifestyle are not quite right and it's OK to be hostile and not like them.
Recently near me they were trying to get a joint catholic/protestant secondary school. All in the same classes but separate for religious education. Fine except that on of the parties was insisting on separate entrances for each religion and separate cloakrooms. Even the kids think it ridiculous. You couldn't make this stuff up and now we have Muslims demanding separate schools and wanting to keep their children away from british children in case they become "contaminated" and the girls especially start getting the idea they can choose their own husbands and boyfriends. Religious bigotry and hatred perpetuated by adults and they get away with it in the name of religious freedom as they demand we be tolerant of their religion and treat it with respect.
If these people are so upset about the bible being defaced why are they not equally outraged and spurned to action by the religious bigotry at old firm games?
You are right I do have a real thing about religion. But not because of abuse by a priest (people makes jokes about that yet anyone else perpetrating such acts would be lynched and no parent or figure of authority would accuse their child of lying) I regard it as a baleful influence and while I don't care what people choose to believe-I have friends and acquaintances right across the religious spectrum even a few of the new age religion followers. (interesting question, if new age shaman are just con men are not christian priests just the same in different robes? Try asking that the next time you hear a christian-or muslim making fun of new age religion. Just be ready to duck) I don't share their belief but that isn't a problem, it becomes one when religion claims for itself a special status that means no one should criticise or object when they claim special privileges for themselves and their followers.
I also find the beliefs themselves absurd and the more I study and read the less of a believer I have become and can articulate why better. But i decided it was a load of rubbish a long time ago. In the Scottish church you elect to become a full member at age sixteen, I chose not to. I was baptised when I was not allowed an opinion-so that makes me a christian doesn't it? Seems in some quarters being an atheist or agnostic should just not be allowed.
Actually you might find this discussion of interest.
Well why shouldn't I-If Christians can be passionate about their beliefs why can't a free thinker? Especially when it is the I am holier than thou brigade that seem to believe no one should have or be able to express any measure of disbelief.
As it happens most of the posters on here are christian so yes most comments are aimed at Christians. I will quite happily discourse with Muslims as well. I view it as a generic debate so any comments are not aimed at any particular individual unless I am addressing a particular point such as the one you just asked.
Why is it many religious people cannot discuss religion without producing the argument that
1)You are disrespecting my beliefs
2)expecting the bible to be taken as the unquestioned word of god and quoting bits out of it as if that settles everything
3)non-believer should not be allowed to comment at all on religious topics.
I was brought up in the free church of scotland-(also known as the smile and the devil get in brigade) we don't have priests appointed in the same way as the catholic or episcopalian church. When I was seven they built a new school for the catholics children-suddenly many of my friends were going to a separate school because of their religion-I remember asking if that meant they weren't christian.
Six months later fights between the proddies and the papes were a regular occurrence between children that didn't really understand what it was all about.
Left alone children might fight but generally they will end up getting along very well together. Religion takes children and teaches them that other children who do not believe as they do or who have a different lifestyle are not quite right and it's OK to be hostile and not like them.
Recently near me they were trying to get a joint catholic/protestant secondary school. All in the same classes but separate for religious education. Fine except that on of the parties was insisting on separate entrances for each religion and separate cloakrooms. Even the kids think it ridiculous. You couldn't make this stuff up and now we have Muslims demanding separate schools and wanting to keep their children away from british children in case they become "contaminated" and the girls especially start getting the idea they can choose their own husbands and boyfriends. Religious bigotry and hatred perpetuated by adults and they get away with it in the name of religious freedom as they demand we be tolerant of their religion and treat it with respect.
If these people are so upset about the bible being defaced why are they not equally outraged and spurned to action by the religious bigotry at old firm games?
You are right I do have a real thing about religion. But not because of abuse by a priest (people makes jokes about that yet anyone else perpetrating such acts would be lynched and no parent or figure of authority would accuse their child of lying) I regard it as a baleful influence and while I don't care what people choose to believe-I have friends and acquaintances right across the religious spectrum even a few of the new age religion followers. (interesting question, if new age shaman are just con men are not christian priests just the same in different robes? Try asking that the next time you hear a christian-or muslim making fun of new age religion. Just be ready to duck) I don't share their belief but that isn't a problem, it becomes one when religion claims for itself a special status that means no one should criticise or object when they claim special privileges for themselves and their followers.
I also find the beliefs themselves absurd and the more I study and read the less of a believer I have become and can articulate why better. But i decided it was a load of rubbish a long time ago. In the Scottish church you elect to become a full member at age sixteen, I chose not to. I was baptised when I was not allowed an opinion-so that makes me a christian doesn't it? Seems in some quarters being an atheist or agnostic should just not be allowed.
Actually you might find this discussion of interest.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
By calling something ‘Art’ is it then a free ticket to do whatever you want to? If this is a true artist wanting to push the limits, then I suggest that he continues his ‘art’ and his next display should be in Jerusalem, where he can invite the public to come and write all over the Torah.
Then how about a trip to Saudi Arabia where he can invite Muslims to write all over the Koran? Then on to other countries to deface their ‘holy books’ as well? How long do you think he would be alive?? Again I ask, how did the Catholic religion become so weak, and open for mockery?
Yes there are some terrible things that have been done by those in the church, in Ireland a report has just been issued about child abuse in the Catholic institutions during the years when the church practically ran this country, it is horrific. But you can be sure that the same things are happening elsewhere but just not uncovered yet.
Even with this however, does it still make it OK to tear up and stuff a bra with the pages from the same book in which even the president of the United States swears his oath upon?
People have mentioned respect for things… I agree, every book that we have ever bought in our house is still in good shape. When done with a book, I wouldn’t even throw one out, I would pass it on, or leave it somewhere for others to read. Sometimes in hotel lobbies you can leave books you are finished with for other travelers to read, I have often done this on trips when done with a book.
I think that the art exhibition was wrong, disrespectful, and in no way can be considered ‘art’.
Then how about a trip to Saudi Arabia where he can invite Muslims to write all over the Koran? Then on to other countries to deface their ‘holy books’ as well? How long do you think he would be alive?? Again I ask, how did the Catholic religion become so weak, and open for mockery?
Yes there are some terrible things that have been done by those in the church, in Ireland a report has just been issued about child abuse in the Catholic institutions during the years when the church practically ran this country, it is horrific. But you can be sure that the same things are happening elsewhere but just not uncovered yet.
Even with this however, does it still make it OK to tear up and stuff a bra with the pages from the same book in which even the president of the United States swears his oath upon?
People have mentioned respect for things… I agree, every book that we have ever bought in our house is still in good shape. When done with a book, I wouldn’t even throw one out, I would pass it on, or leave it somewhere for others to read. Sometimes in hotel lobbies you can leave books you are finished with for other travelers to read, I have often done this on trips when done with a book.
I think that the art exhibition was wrong, disrespectful, and in no way can be considered ‘art’.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
May I applaud you, GMC, for the way you have responded to a personal and derogatory comment which, of itself, did not make any contribution to the thread's subject matter.:yh_peace
Defacing of Bible: Art???
In the interest of balance
YouTube - THE NEW WORLD ORDER ON GOD TV DECEMBER 5TH ONWARDS
Yes folks I do occasionally watch god TV and no doubt I will now be accused of being disrespectful about religion.
Posted by openmind
May I applaud you, GMC, for the way you have responded to a personal and derogatory comment which, of itself, did not make any contribution to the thread's subject matter.
I don't think Bill Sikes was being derogatory and I didn't find it offensive. Not being religious I do not equate someone disagreeing with me or asking what I am playing at as being a personal attack. He's right I do like discussing religion and politics. There is no point being on a discussion forum unless it is to discuss things with people whose attitudes and beliefs you do not share. At least that is my viewpoint.
YouTube - THE NEW WORLD ORDER ON GOD TV DECEMBER 5TH ONWARDS
Yes folks I do occasionally watch god TV and no doubt I will now be accused of being disrespectful about religion.
Posted by openmind
May I applaud you, GMC, for the way you have responded to a personal and derogatory comment which, of itself, did not make any contribution to the thread's subject matter.
I don't think Bill Sikes was being derogatory and I didn't find it offensive. Not being religious I do not equate someone disagreeing with me or asking what I am playing at as being a personal attack. He's right I do like discussing religion and politics. There is no point being on a discussion forum unless it is to discuss things with people whose attitudes and beliefs you do not share. At least that is my viewpoint.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
gmc;1223255 wrote: In the interest of balance
YouTube - THE NEW WORLD ORDER ON GOD TV DECEMBER 5TH ONWARDS
Yes folks I do occasionally watch god TV and no doubt I will now be accused of being disrespectful about religion.
The world is always just about to end isn’t it? Why do people always need to be afraid of something??
YouTube - THE NEW WORLD ORDER ON GOD TV DECEMBER 5TH ONWARDS
Yes folks I do occasionally watch god TV and no doubt I will now be accused of being disrespectful about religion.
The world is always just about to end isn’t it? Why do people always need to be afraid of something??
Defacing of Bible: Art???
mikeinie;1223253 wrote: By calling something ‘Art’ is it then a free ticket to do whatever you want to? If this is a true artist wanting to push the limits, then I suggest that he continues his ‘art’ and his next display should be in Jerusalem, where he can invite the public to come and write all over the Torah.
Then how about a trip to Saudi Arabia where he can invite Muslims to write all over the Koran? Then on to other countries to deface their ‘holy books’ as well? How long do you think he would be alive?? Again I ask, how did the Catholic religion become so weak, and open for mockery?
Yes there are some terrible things that have been done by those in the church, in Ireland a report has just been issued about child abuse in the Catholic institutions during the years when the church practically ran this country, it is horrific. But you can be sure that the same things are happening elsewhere but just not uncovered yet.
Even with this however, does it still make it OK to tear up and stuff a bra with the pages from the same book in which even the president of the United States swears his oath upon?
People have mentioned respect for things… I agree, every book that we have ever bought in our house is still in good shape. When done with a book, I wouldn’t even throw one out, I would pass it on, or leave it somewhere for others to read. Sometimes in hotel lobbies you can leave books you are finished with for other travelers to read, I have often done this on trips when done with a book.
I think that the art exhibition was wrong, disrespectful, and in no way can be considered ‘art’.
Yes, I think that this can be described as art. Art does have a wide vocabulary. However, I think that the exhibitors were naive to not allow for the pernicious nature of many members of the general public. If the exhibition had been held in a more appropriate setting, they would have more likely obtained the results they wanted - a church fete for instance.
Let me point out that the Bible is one of millions of other copies of the original transcripts which are not available for this kind of treatment. The content may be sacred but the book itself is not.
Art is evocative and at its best will evoke a wide spectrum of responses from the viewing masses. many do not understand, let alone appreciate Cubism, but it is still art.
Yet, in one way, the exhibition has been successful. Insofar as it evoked a response from the general public, albeit highly negative, the church can learn something from this as to why it is spurned by so many.
Then how about a trip to Saudi Arabia where he can invite Muslims to write all over the Koran? Then on to other countries to deface their ‘holy books’ as well? How long do you think he would be alive?? Again I ask, how did the Catholic religion become so weak, and open for mockery?
Yes there are some terrible things that have been done by those in the church, in Ireland a report has just been issued about child abuse in the Catholic institutions during the years when the church practically ran this country, it is horrific. But you can be sure that the same things are happening elsewhere but just not uncovered yet.
Even with this however, does it still make it OK to tear up and stuff a bra with the pages from the same book in which even the president of the United States swears his oath upon?
People have mentioned respect for things… I agree, every book that we have ever bought in our house is still in good shape. When done with a book, I wouldn’t even throw one out, I would pass it on, or leave it somewhere for others to read. Sometimes in hotel lobbies you can leave books you are finished with for other travelers to read, I have often done this on trips when done with a book.
I think that the art exhibition was wrong, disrespectful, and in no way can be considered ‘art’.
Yes, I think that this can be described as art. Art does have a wide vocabulary. However, I think that the exhibitors were naive to not allow for the pernicious nature of many members of the general public. If the exhibition had been held in a more appropriate setting, they would have more likely obtained the results they wanted - a church fete for instance.
Let me point out that the Bible is one of millions of other copies of the original transcripts which are not available for this kind of treatment. The content may be sacred but the book itself is not.
Art is evocative and at its best will evoke a wide spectrum of responses from the viewing masses. many do not understand, let alone appreciate Cubism, but it is still art.
Yet, in one way, the exhibition has been successful. Insofar as it evoked a response from the general public, albeit highly negative, the church can learn something from this as to why it is spurned by so many.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
gmc;1223255 wrote: Posted by openmind
I don't think Bill Sikes was being derogatory and I didn't find it offensive. Not being religious I do not equate someone disagreeing with me or asking what I am playing at as being a personal attack. He's right I do like discussing religion and politics. There is no point being on a discussion forum unless it is to discuss things with people whose attitudes and beliefs you do not share. At least that is my viewpoint.
As you wish, GMC. I still stand by what I said that his comment didn't contribute to the thread's subject matter.
I don't think Bill Sikes was being derogatory and I didn't find it offensive. Not being religious I do not equate someone disagreeing with me or asking what I am playing at as being a personal attack. He's right I do like discussing religion and politics. There is no point being on a discussion forum unless it is to discuss things with people whose attitudes and beliefs you do not share. At least that is my viewpoint.
As you wish, GMC. I still stand by what I said that his comment didn't contribute to the thread's subject matter.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
True, but that is the same as saying that any publicity is good publicity. It the difference between fame and notoriety, just like many of the ‘celebrities’ these days who are people who have done nothing but be in the public spot light for a few weeks (ie Big Brother contestants, & other reality tv short lived personalities).
The fact that it has triggered a response does not make it art, it makes it news worthy, the fact that this guy has been in the papers for what he did does not make him an artist, it just gives publicity to his vulgar display.
The fact that it has triggered a response does not make it art, it makes it news worthy, the fact that this guy has been in the papers for what he did does not make him an artist, it just gives publicity to his vulgar display.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
mikeinie;1223290 wrote: True, but that is the same as saying that any publicity is good publicity. It the difference between fame and notoriety, just like many of the ‘celebrities’ these days who are people who have done nothing but be in the public spot light for a few weeks (ie Big Brother contestants, & other reality tv short lived personalities).
The fact that it has triggered a response does not make it art, it makes it news worthy, the fact that this guy has been in the papers for what he did does not make him an artist, it just gives publicity to his vulgar display.
It is true that his 'props' were simple. A Bible and a container of pens. But the artist did leave a set of instructions and it is clear that no one who wrote comments on the Bible followed those instructions.
As for what constitutes art, it is rather like what constitutes beauty - it is in the eye of the beholder. To me, good art evokes an emotional response and it seems to me that the display certainly did that.
The word 'art' has a very wide definition. I thought I might add here the definition given in Dictionary.com:
art
–noun 1.the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.2.the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria; works of art collectively, as paintings, sculptures, or drawings: a museum of art; an art collection. 3.a field, genre, or category of art: Dance is an art. 4.the fine arts collectively, often excluding architecture: art and architecture. 5.any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art. 6.(in printed matter) illustrative or decorative material: Is there any art with the copy for this story? 7.the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning: the art of baking; the art of selling. 8.the craft or trade using these principles or methods.9.skill in conducting any human activity: a master at the art of conversation. 10.a branch of learning or university study, esp. one of the fine arts or the humanities, as music, philosophy, or literature.11.arts, a.(used with a singular verb) the humanities: a college of arts and sciences. b.(used with a plural verb) liberal arts. 12.skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.13.trickery; cunning: glib and devious art. 14.studied action; artificiality in behavior.15.an artifice or artful device: the innumerable arts and wiles of politics. 16.Archaic. science, learning, or scholarship.
Origin:
1175–1225; ME ars ars (nom.), artem (acc.)
The fact that it has triggered a response does not make it art, it makes it news worthy, the fact that this guy has been in the papers for what he did does not make him an artist, it just gives publicity to his vulgar display.
It is true that his 'props' were simple. A Bible and a container of pens. But the artist did leave a set of instructions and it is clear that no one who wrote comments on the Bible followed those instructions.
As for what constitutes art, it is rather like what constitutes beauty - it is in the eye of the beholder. To me, good art evokes an emotional response and it seems to me that the display certainly did that.
The word 'art' has a very wide definition. I thought I might add here the definition given in Dictionary.com:
art
–noun 1.the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.2.the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria; works of art collectively, as paintings, sculptures, or drawings: a museum of art; an art collection. 3.a field, genre, or category of art: Dance is an art. 4.the fine arts collectively, often excluding architecture: art and architecture. 5.any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art. 6.(in printed matter) illustrative or decorative material: Is there any art with the copy for this story? 7.the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning: the art of baking; the art of selling. 8.the craft or trade using these principles or methods.9.skill in conducting any human activity: a master at the art of conversation. 10.a branch of learning or university study, esp. one of the fine arts or the humanities, as music, philosophy, or literature.11.arts, a.(used with a singular verb) the humanities: a college of arts and sciences. b.(used with a plural verb) liberal arts. 12.skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.13.trickery; cunning: glib and devious art. 14.studied action; artificiality in behavior.15.an artifice or artful device: the innumerable arts and wiles of politics. 16.Archaic. science, learning, or scholarship.
Origin:
1175–1225; ME ars ars (nom.), artem (acc.)
Defacing of Bible: Art???
gmc;1222923 wrote: It's a book for goodness sake. If someone ripping up your book somehow makes you less of a Christian you probably weren't much of one to begin with. Given the propensity of the church to go in for book burning and trying to stop things being published I don't suppose they are capable of appreciating the irony of their complaining. People who take the bible and the koran literally are some of the most dangerous people on the planet.
Whether it is art or not is another question perhaps. I won't be going to see it.
Yes we should do it to the koran as well. It's ridiculous that religion can demand that people be imprisoned for daring to treat a book with disrespect. It is the contents that matter not the container, if the message is really that vital it will not be lost.
It's a free country-don't go to the exhibition if it bothers you that much.
I agree, it's just a book. If someone tore it up in front of me I would be more upset on the loss of money than anything else. It's the same with burning the US Flag. But on the other hand.......try tearing up a Koran in Afghanistan or Iran and see what happens......the Bible is just a vessel to get the word of God in your heart
Whether it is art or not is another question perhaps. I won't be going to see it.
Yes we should do it to the koran as well. It's ridiculous that religion can demand that people be imprisoned for daring to treat a book with disrespect. It is the contents that matter not the container, if the message is really that vital it will not be lost.
It's a free country-don't go to the exhibition if it bothers you that much.
I agree, it's just a book. If someone tore it up in front of me I would be more upset on the loss of money than anything else. It's the same with burning the US Flag. But on the other hand.......try tearing up a Koran in Afghanistan or Iran and see what happens......the Bible is just a vessel to get the word of God in your heart
Those who made the ultimate sacrifice thought YOU were worth dying for. Remember THEM
I'm Pro-Life, Pro-Gun, Christian, and a proud Veteran. Therefore, my government has labeled me a "right-wing extremist", a militia member, and a possible domestic terrorist
I'm Pro-Life, Pro-Gun, Christian, and a proud Veteran. Therefore, my government has labeled me a "right-wing extremist", a militia member, and a possible domestic terrorist
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luciferjohn
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Defacing of Bible: Art???
mikeinie;1222909 wrote: In Glasgow this week there was an ‘art’ exhibition in which people were allowed to deface a bible and write whatever they wanted on it, which included swearing, and anything else you wanted. Included in the exhibition was a video of a young woman tearing paged from a bible and stuffing her bra with them.
As many of you know, I have expressed my religious beliefs here, which even I have not yet even defined. I am not an atheist, but I do not believe in earthly religious institutions, but this does not mean that I do not respect them, which I do.
I guess the first question is: is this really art? I mean come on, defacing a religions holy book considered art?
The second question is this: How did the Catholic religion get to the point where there is no respect shown and displayed so openly and have such a minimal response. Can you imagine if this artist did this to the Koran? He would be dead by now along with his wife and his kids… If it was done to the Torah there would be cries of anti-Semitism, but do this to the Catholic Church and nothing…
I think that this ‘art; display is disgusting, disrespectful of people’s beliefs and never should have been allowed.
i wonder if this idea is a good one, lets let people who are not of our faith write on our holy book?? 
:-5
and people say im dumb:-5
As many of you know, I have expressed my religious beliefs here, which even I have not yet even defined. I am not an atheist, but I do not believe in earthly religious institutions, but this does not mean that I do not respect them, which I do.
I guess the first question is: is this really art? I mean come on, defacing a religions holy book considered art?
The second question is this: How did the Catholic religion get to the point where there is no respect shown and displayed so openly and have such a minimal response. Can you imagine if this artist did this to the Koran? He would be dead by now along with his wife and his kids… If it was done to the Torah there would be cries of anti-Semitism, but do this to the Catholic Church and nothing…
I think that this ‘art; display is disgusting, disrespectful of people’s beliefs and never should have been allowed.
i wonder if this idea is a good one, lets let people who are not of our faith write on our holy book?? :-5and people say im dumb:-5
:driving:lookout smart guy talkin:guitarist:yh_devil:yh_ghost:
Defacing of Bible: Art???
luciferjohn;1238842 wrote: i wonder if this idea is a good one, lets let people who are not of our faith write on our holy book?? :-5
and people say im dumb:-5
The more a person's willing to react in anger the more easy it is to provoke that person. It's a weakness, not a strength. Consider how Osama bin Laden's destroyed the USA with practically no resources at all, simply because they couldn't bring themselves to react rationally to a criminal act.
i wonder if this idea is a good one, lets let people who are not of our faith write on our holy book?? :-5and people say im dumb:-5
The more a person's willing to react in anger the more easy it is to provoke that person. It's a weakness, not a strength. Consider how Osama bin Laden's destroyed the USA with practically no resources at all, simply because they couldn't bring themselves to react rationally to a criminal act.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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luciferjohn
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:18 pm
Defacing of Bible: Art???
spot;1238843 wrote: The more a person's willing to react in anger the more easy it is to provoke that person. It's a weakness, not a strength. Consider how Osama bin Laden's destroyed the USA with practically no resources at all, simply because they couldn't bring themselves to react rationally to a criminal act.
true i was just pointing out that knowing the flaws with humanity, it wasnt a very well thought out plan, considering most people automaticly, argue with or despise an opposing view point, i think rationale for the most part is something we as humans still dont have a ful grasp on.
true i was just pointing out that knowing the flaws with humanity, it wasnt a very well thought out plan, considering most people automaticly, argue with or despise an opposing view point, i think rationale for the most part is something we as humans still dont have a ful grasp on.
:driving:lookout smart guy talkin:guitarist:yh_devil:yh_ghost:
Defacing of Bible: Art???
luciferjohn;1238849 wrote: i think rationale for the most part is something we as humans still dont have a ful grasp on.
Speak for yourself.
Speak for yourself.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
luciferjohn
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:18 pm
Defacing of Bible: Art???
spot;1238851 wrote: Speak for yourself.
:yh_rotfl:wah::):D
:yh_rotfl:wah::):D
:driving:lookout smart guy talkin:guitarist:yh_devil:yh_ghost:
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Mariposa Traicionera
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:00 pm
Defacing of Bible: Art???
I'm coming in late to this discussion. I personally don't find it fits my definition of 'art,' but neither do I find it offensive. I definitely feel it should be allowed, as it falls under free speech.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Mariposa Traicionera;1238919 wrote: I'm coming in late to this discussion. I personally don't find it fits my definition of 'art,' but neither do I find it offensive. I definitely feel it should be allowed, as it falls under free speech.
I appreciate that, and do not necessarily disagree, but one of the points that I was trying to make was why the bible? Is it and easy target? Catholics are somewhat laid back about their religion by comparison to other religions. If the artist had chosen the Koran or a Torah to deface what would the response be? Would that still be art?
I appreciate that, and do not necessarily disagree, but one of the points that I was trying to make was why the bible? Is it and easy target? Catholics are somewhat laid back about their religion by comparison to other religions. If the artist had chosen the Koran or a Torah to deface what would the response be? Would that still be art?
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Mariposa Traicionera
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:00 pm
Defacing of Bible: Art???
mikeinie;1238994 wrote: I appreciate that, and do not necessarily disagree, but one of the points that I was trying to make was why the bible? Is it and easy target? Catholics are somewhat laid back about their religion by comparison to other religions. If the artist had chosen the Koran or a Torah to deface what would the response be? Would that still be art?
Well, as I said, it doesn't fit my definition of art but, yeah, it probably has a lot to do with Christianity being an easy target. Would that all religions were so laid back.
Well, as I said, it doesn't fit my definition of art but, yeah, it probably has a lot to do with Christianity being an easy target. Would that all religions were so laid back.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
hoppy;1222911 wrote: That only reinforces my belief that the closer to end times we get, the more barbaric and idiotic people behave.
Considering "the end time" has not imposed upon us that observation couldn't possibly be true!
Considering "the end time" has not imposed upon us that observation couldn't possibly be true!
Defacing of Bible: Art???
If I had taken a crap(Refraining ever so diligently from soiling myself for absolutely no reason other than to get a reaction out of someone!) and wiped my 
with a piece of paper from the bible would that not be appropriate?
No, hear me out!
Lets say that all that was around were bark, poison ivy, and the bible!
Shoving a piece of bark in my rectum would most certainly be a cause for concern relative to my health and my desire to live a long and healthy lifestyle both mentally and physically as can be described for one ever having wiped their with a poison ivy leaf!
So that leaves only one answer!
Would The One True God not only ignore the fact that I wiped my with a piece of paper from the bible but would encourage it seeing as The One True God would wish that I lived a healthy and productive lifestyle!
with a piece of paper from the bible would that not be appropriate?No, hear me out!
Lets say that all that was around were bark, poison ivy, and the bible!
Shoving a piece of bark in my rectum would most certainly be a cause for concern relative to my health and my desire to live a long and healthy lifestyle both mentally and physically as can be described for one ever having wiped their
with a poison ivy leaf!So that leaves only one answer!
Would The One True God not only ignore the fact that I wiped my
with a piece of paper from the bible but would encourage it seeing as The One True God would wish that I lived a healthy and productive lifestyle!
Defacing of Bible: Art???
mikeinie;1222909 wrote: In Glasgow this week there was an ‘art’ exhibition in which people were allowed to deface a bible and write whatever they wanted on it, which included swearing, and anything else you wanted. Included in the exhibition was a video of a young woman tearing paged from a bible and stuffing her bra with them.
As many of you know, I have expressed my religious beliefs here, which even I have not yet even defined. I am not an atheist, but I do not believe in earthly religious institutions, but this does not mean that I do not respect them, which I do.
I guess the first question is: is this really art? I mean come on, defacing a religions holy book considered art?
The second question is this: How did the Catholic religion get to the point where there is no respect shown and displayed so openly and have such a minimal response. Can you imagine if this artist did this to the Koran? He would be dead by now along with his wife and his kids… If it was done to the Torah there would be cries of anti-Semitism, but do this to the Catholic Church and nothing…
I think that this ‘art; display is disgusting, disrespectful of people’s beliefs and never should have been allowed.
Gallery’s invitation to deface the Bible brings obscene response -Times Online
Good topic!
My husband just noted, and accurately, that they would have been put to death for this a couple hundred years ago. The crime is blasphemy.
And what a shame the people that put this 'art' together in the first place, perhaps did not consider the price people paid for getting that book published in english!
Those folks willingly gave their lives at the stake for DARING to translate that book to common english! Just so people could read it for themselves.
That fact alone makes that book sacred, regardless of what you believe.
Respect cannot be taught when folks dont respect themselves in the first place.
This act of defilement just shows the line between human and animal behaviour are blurring even further.
As many of you know, I have expressed my religious beliefs here, which even I have not yet even defined. I am not an atheist, but I do not believe in earthly religious institutions, but this does not mean that I do not respect them, which I do.
I guess the first question is: is this really art? I mean come on, defacing a religions holy book considered art?
The second question is this: How did the Catholic religion get to the point where there is no respect shown and displayed so openly and have such a minimal response. Can you imagine if this artist did this to the Koran? He would be dead by now along with his wife and his kids… If it was done to the Torah there would be cries of anti-Semitism, but do this to the Catholic Church and nothing…
I think that this ‘art; display is disgusting, disrespectful of people’s beliefs and never should have been allowed.
Gallery’s invitation to deface the Bible brings obscene response -Times Online
Good topic!
My husband just noted, and accurately, that they would have been put to death for this a couple hundred years ago. The crime is blasphemy.
And what a shame the people that put this 'art' together in the first place, perhaps did not consider the price people paid for getting that book published in english!
Those folks willingly gave their lives at the stake for DARING to translate that book to common english! Just so people could read it for themselves.
That fact alone makes that book sacred, regardless of what you believe.
Respect cannot be taught when folks dont respect themselves in the first place.
This act of defilement just shows the line between human and animal behaviour are blurring even further.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Defacing of Bible: Art???
The more I live my life the more I come to the conclusion that humor is worth nothing to anyone anymore! Or at least people just quite frankly don't get it! I would pi on the bible in the middle of Catholic church if I knew I'd get a laugh from it!
What is entirely wrong with ones opinion to object to the teachings of a book? Would the world get the same response had someone soiled a Doctor Seuss book? I don't think so!
The rest are those that are so unfamiliar with their logic they fear a response to the point of prejudice oblivious to their contradiction!
on the bible in the middle of Catholic church if I knew I'd get a laugh from it!What is entirely wrong with ones opinion to object to the teachings of a book? Would the world get the same response had someone soiled a Doctor Seuss book? I don't think so!
The rest are those that are so unfamiliar with their logic they fear a response to the point of prejudice oblivious to their contradiction!
Defacing of Bible: Art???
Raven;1257729 wrote: Good topic!
My husband just noted, and accurately, that they would have been put to death for this a couple hundred years ago. The crime is blasphemy.In what country, Raven? Are we talking about England here or somewhere barbaric?
200 years ago is 1809?
If we're talking about England, I don't know of any instance. I'd be interested to know which you're thinking of. Unless you're going back a lot further and saying the Tudor fight to establish the Church of England, with Mary burning Protestants and Elizabeth burning Catholics, involved blasphemy. I'd take that to be a wild stretch of the word.
I agree there was a prescribed death sentence for Blasphemy in England until it was repealed in 1676 which was 334 years ago. That's a third of a millennium back. Even before then I don't know of even a single instance of it being applied.
My husband just noted, and accurately, that they would have been put to death for this a couple hundred years ago. The crime is blasphemy.In what country, Raven? Are we talking about England here or somewhere barbaric?
200 years ago is 1809?
If we're talking about England, I don't know of any instance. I'd be interested to know which you're thinking of. Unless you're going back a lot further and saying the Tudor fight to establish the Church of England, with Mary burning Protestants and Elizabeth burning Catholics, involved blasphemy. I'd take that to be a wild stretch of the word.
I agree there was a prescribed death sentence for Blasphemy in England until it was repealed in 1676 which was 334 years ago. That's a third of a millennium back. Even before then I don't know of even a single instance of it being applied.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
spot;1258274 wrote: In what country, Raven? Are we talking about England here or somewhere barbaric?
200 years ago is 1809?
If we're talking about England, I don't know of any instance. I'd be interested to know which you're thinking of. Unless you're going back a lot further and saying the Tudor fight to establish the Church of England, with Mary burning Protestants and Elizabeth burning Catholics, involved blasphemy. I'd take that to be a wild stretch of the word.
I agree there was a prescribed death sentence for Blasphemy in England until it was repealed in 1676 which was 334 years ago. That's a third of a millennium back. Even before then I don't know of even a single instance of it being applied.
I don't think they had Reuters then, did they?
200 years ago is 1809?
If we're talking about England, I don't know of any instance. I'd be interested to know which you're thinking of. Unless you're going back a lot further and saying the Tudor fight to establish the Church of England, with Mary burning Protestants and Elizabeth burning Catholics, involved blasphemy. I'd take that to be a wild stretch of the word.
I agree there was a prescribed death sentence for Blasphemy in England until it was repealed in 1676 which was 334 years ago. That's a third of a millennium back. Even before then I don't know of even a single instance of it being applied.
I don't think they had Reuters then, did they?
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Defacing of Bible: Art???
spot;1258274 wrote: In what country, Raven? Are we talking about England here or somewhere barbaric?
200 years ago is 1809?
If we're talking about England, I don't know of any instance. I'd be interested to know which you're thinking of. Unless you're going back a lot further and saying the Tudor fight to establish the Church of England, with Mary burning Protestants and Elizabeth burning Catholics, involved blasphemy. I'd take that to be a wild stretch of the word.
I agree there was a prescribed death sentence for Blasphemy in England until it was repealed in 1676 which was 334 years ago. That's a third of a millennium back. Even before then I don't know of even a single instance of it being applied.
The last person jailed for blasphemy was in 1922. Mary whitehouse tried to bring a private prosecution in 1977 against gay news. Muslims tried to get salman rushdie prosecuted for blasphemy but in englnd i only apples to the church of england.
It's a concept that has had it's day.
posted by mikienie
I appreciate that, and do not necessarily disagree, but one of the points that I was trying to make was why the bible? Is it and easy target? Catholics are somewhat laid back about their religion by comparison to other religions. If the artist had chosen the Koran or a Torah to deface what would the response be? Would that still be art?
Scotland isn't actually a catholic country. There are no idols in the scottish Presbyterian church so the notion that you can desecrate an object is a ludicrous one since an object is not something that can be sacred in the first place. It's just a book-the majority in scotland are just going to think so what.
but the Christian churches generally are laid back about it after centuries of religious warfare quite simply it's not worth getting worked up about. If you have faith the trappings don't really matter do they? That defacing the torah or the koran causes such outrage and violence is perhaps a comment on the followers of the religion rather than the religion itself.
200 years ago is 1809?
If we're talking about England, I don't know of any instance. I'd be interested to know which you're thinking of. Unless you're going back a lot further and saying the Tudor fight to establish the Church of England, with Mary burning Protestants and Elizabeth burning Catholics, involved blasphemy. I'd take that to be a wild stretch of the word.
I agree there was a prescribed death sentence for Blasphemy in England until it was repealed in 1676 which was 334 years ago. That's a third of a millennium back. Even before then I don't know of even a single instance of it being applied.
The last person jailed for blasphemy was in 1922. Mary whitehouse tried to bring a private prosecution in 1977 against gay news. Muslims tried to get salman rushdie prosecuted for blasphemy but in englnd i only apples to the church of england.
It's a concept that has had it's day.
posted by mikienie
I appreciate that, and do not necessarily disagree, but one of the points that I was trying to make was why the bible? Is it and easy target? Catholics are somewhat laid back about their religion by comparison to other religions. If the artist had chosen the Koran or a Torah to deface what would the response be? Would that still be art?
Scotland isn't actually a catholic country. There are no idols in the scottish Presbyterian church so the notion that you can desecrate an object is a ludicrous one since an object is not something that can be sacred in the first place. It's just a book-the majority in scotland are just going to think so what.
but the Christian churches generally are laid back about it after centuries of religious warfare quite simply it's not worth getting worked up about. If you have faith the trappings don't really matter do they? That defacing the torah or the koran causes such outrage and violence is perhaps a comment on the followers of the religion rather than the religion itself.
Defacing of Bible: Art???
gmc;1258372 wrote: The last person jailed for blasphemy was in 1922. Mary whitehouse tried to bring a private prosecution in 1977 against gay news. Muslims tried to get salman rushdie prosecuted for blasphemy but in englnd i only apples to the church of england.
It's a concept that has had it's day.
Entirely true, but not really relevant to "My husband just noted, and accurately, that they would have been put to death for this a couple hundred years ago. The crime is blasphemy" which is what I asked Raven about.
G#Gill wrote: I don't think they had Reuters then, did they?Not in 1809, no. Reuter started his news agency around 1850 and floated his company in 1865.
I don't know of any occasion when anyone was ever executed in England for blasphemy. If anyone has an example I'd love to see it.
It's a concept that has had it's day.
Entirely true, but not really relevant to "My husband just noted, and accurately, that they would have been put to death for this a couple hundred years ago. The crime is blasphemy" which is what I asked Raven about.
G#Gill wrote: I don't think they had Reuters then, did they?Not in 1809, no. Reuter started his news agency around 1850 and floated his company in 1865.
I don't know of any occasion when anyone was ever executed in England for blasphemy. If anyone has an example I'd love to see it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.