23 CIA operatives and 2 Italians have been found guilty in an Italian court of the kidnap of an Egyptian Cleric in 2003 as part of a campaign of "Extraordinary Rendition".
A US government official tonight said that, because it was the CIA, it should never have been brought to court.
I'd be interested in opinions from all quarters, both on the process of Extraordinary Rendition and on the accountability of the CIA.
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
Until it's proven that people are being tortured within these "programs" I can't see any charges being upheld.
You feel these 23 CIA operatives and 2 Italians will spend their sentences in prison?
You feel these 23 CIA operatives and 2 Italians will spend their sentences in prison?
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
K.Snyder;1259338 wrote: Until it's proven that people are being tortured within these "programs" I can't see any charges being upheld.
You feel these 23 CIA operatives and 2 Italians will spend their sentences in prison?
I thought that that had been admitted, at least tacitly, by the current administration.
The charges though, were specifically related to kidnap, not torture, and already have been upheld by the court.
No, they were charged in absentia and I cannot see them going to Italy or being extradited to serve their time.
You feel these 23 CIA operatives and 2 Italians will spend their sentences in prison?
I thought that that had been admitted, at least tacitly, by the current administration.
The charges though, were specifically related to kidnap, not torture, and already have been upheld by the court.
No, they were charged in absentia and I cannot see them going to Italy or being extradited to serve their time.
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
The US has consistently refused to recognise the jurisdiction of any international court or the right of courts of any country to extradite their intelligence service operatives for trial.
They don't seem to think they should be held accountable at home either.
Second Circuit Affirms Dismissal of Ararâ€By Scott Horton (Harper's Magazine)
This is “hardly an ordinary immigration case, as the majority concedes. Arar was apprehended in transit from a Mediterranean vacation to his home in Ottawa at the JFK airport. U.S. agents acting on a tip from the Canadian mounties–that turned out to be completely incorrect–seized Arar and held him for several days. Understandably, they were not going to let Arar into the country. This was fine with Arar, who just wanted to go home to Canada. But because Arar was born in Syria, Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson, acting on the advice of two political appointees serving in the Attorney General’s office, signed an order to send him back to Syria. That decision was taken after an immigration review panel had concluded, with what turned out to be perfect accuracy, that Arar would be tortured if sent there. (Perhaps not coincidentally, Thompson resigned and departed shortly after learning the full story behind the Arar case.) Arar was turned over to the Syrians with a list of questions, and he was indeed brutally tortured for a year—to no point, of course, since Arar had no connections with any terrorist organizations. The Canadian Government, recognizing that its wrongdoing led indirectly to Arar’s mistreatment, conducted a comprehensive investigation, fully acknowledged its mistakes in a voluminous report, issued a formal letter of apology, and awarded Arar $11.5 million (Canadian) in compensation and reimbursement of legal costs. And the United States?
The United States tenaciously refused to acknowledge ever having made any mistakes—even after its own sources did so. It stonewalled Congressional probes and issued a travel ban to stop Arar from testifying before Congress. The Bush Justice Department made aggressive representations to the courts in response to Arar’s suit that strained credulity at almost every step. As in other cases, their trump card was simple: when caught with pants down, shout “state secrets!
If the intelligence services are above the law then do you live in a free country?
They don't seem to think they should be held accountable at home either.
Second Circuit Affirms Dismissal of Ararâ€By Scott Horton (Harper's Magazine)
This is “hardly an ordinary immigration case, as the majority concedes. Arar was apprehended in transit from a Mediterranean vacation to his home in Ottawa at the JFK airport. U.S. agents acting on a tip from the Canadian mounties–that turned out to be completely incorrect–seized Arar and held him for several days. Understandably, they were not going to let Arar into the country. This was fine with Arar, who just wanted to go home to Canada. But because Arar was born in Syria, Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson, acting on the advice of two political appointees serving in the Attorney General’s office, signed an order to send him back to Syria. That decision was taken after an immigration review panel had concluded, with what turned out to be perfect accuracy, that Arar would be tortured if sent there. (Perhaps not coincidentally, Thompson resigned and departed shortly after learning the full story behind the Arar case.) Arar was turned over to the Syrians with a list of questions, and he was indeed brutally tortured for a year—to no point, of course, since Arar had no connections with any terrorist organizations. The Canadian Government, recognizing that its wrongdoing led indirectly to Arar’s mistreatment, conducted a comprehensive investigation, fully acknowledged its mistakes in a voluminous report, issued a formal letter of apology, and awarded Arar $11.5 million (Canadian) in compensation and reimbursement of legal costs. And the United States?
The United States tenaciously refused to acknowledge ever having made any mistakes—even after its own sources did so. It stonewalled Congressional probes and issued a travel ban to stop Arar from testifying before Congress. The Bush Justice Department made aggressive representations to the courts in response to Arar’s suit that strained credulity at almost every step. As in other cases, their trump card was simple: when caught with pants down, shout “state secrets!
If the intelligence services are above the law then do you live in a free country?
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
What?
The CIA?
NOooooo
Neverrrrr
Involved in operative and intelligence gathering????
Espionage????
Impossible......
I just can’t believe what I am reading..
The CIA?
NOooooo
Neverrrrr
Involved in operative and intelligence gathering????
Espionage????
Impossible......
I just can’t believe what I am reading..
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
Kidnap, Mike. That's what the court found the operatives guilty of.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
spot;1259389 wrote: Kidnap, Mike. That's what the court found the operatives guilty of.
Nooooo
Not kidnapping as well¦.???
What is the world coming to??
Who would think that secret service agents would be running around breaking laws?
Next thing you’ll be telling me is that they are infiltrating foreign governments and trying to start revolutions or things such as thatas well.
Nooooo
Not kidnapping as well¦.???
What is the world coming to??
Who would think that secret service agents would be running around breaking laws?
Next thing you’ll be telling me is that they are infiltrating foreign governments and trying to start revolutions or things such as thatas well.
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Clodhopper
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CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
Mike: :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Lovely.
Lovely.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Clodhopper
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CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
Oh - I don't know what "Extraordinary Rendition" is, but it sounds like a euphemism for something awful.
If the story is true, well done Canada for admitting the error. Shame on the US for not.
If the story is true, well done Canada for admitting the error. Shame on the US for not.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
-
Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
For fear of being called Anti-American... should anyone be surprised? The CIA have been a law unto themselves since the dawning of time. They murdered Che Guevara, the Iran/Contra, to present day, alleged involvement in Lockerbie to name only a few.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
CIA Found Guilty of Kidnap
EXCLUSIVE: Convicted CIA Spy Says "We Broke the Law" - ABC News
Without confirming her CIA role, deSousa said her status as a State Department diplomat should have protected her, but that the U.S. refused to invoke diplomatic immunity.
"Everything I did was approved back in Washington," she said. deSousa says she was on a ski trip on the actual day of the kidnapping.
Now there's thing-it's an established principle of international law- thanks to the Nuremberg trials-that "just following orders" is not a defence.
I did these same things under the Reagan administration," Baer told ABCNews.com "When we did a rendition, we did it in international waters. The Bush administration threw all caution to the wind."
The operation to capture Abu Omar was part of the CIA's extraordinary rendition program, according to U.S. intelligence officials involved in his transfer. The kidnapped cleric was held in Egypt for four years and says he was repeatedly tortured there by Egyptian interrogators.
He was never charged with a crime and ultimately set free. He remains in Alexandria, Egypt.
"He was the wrong guy," said Baer. "It was not worth putting the reputation of the United Sates on the line going after somebody like this."
Now there's a comment that should worry Americans. Habeas corpus and the right to a fair trial indeed all civil rights are not designed to protect criminals like all laws they are designed to curb the power of rulers to do what they like. People seem to forget that and think it doesn't matter so long as it's not them on the receiving end. Courts should not be under the control of their government If china or russia had been caught doing these things what would the reaction in the states be then? Would it still be it wasn't the place of the italian courts to make judgement?
Without confirming her CIA role, deSousa said her status as a State Department diplomat should have protected her, but that the U.S. refused to invoke diplomatic immunity.
"Everything I did was approved back in Washington," she said. deSousa says she was on a ski trip on the actual day of the kidnapping.
Now there's thing-it's an established principle of international law- thanks to the Nuremberg trials-that "just following orders" is not a defence.
I did these same things under the Reagan administration," Baer told ABCNews.com "When we did a rendition, we did it in international waters. The Bush administration threw all caution to the wind."
The operation to capture Abu Omar was part of the CIA's extraordinary rendition program, according to U.S. intelligence officials involved in his transfer. The kidnapped cleric was held in Egypt for four years and says he was repeatedly tortured there by Egyptian interrogators.
He was never charged with a crime and ultimately set free. He remains in Alexandria, Egypt.
"He was the wrong guy," said Baer. "It was not worth putting the reputation of the United Sates on the line going after somebody like this."
Now there's a comment that should worry Americans. Habeas corpus and the right to a fair trial indeed all civil rights are not designed to protect criminals like all laws they are designed to curb the power of rulers to do what they like. People seem to forget that and think it doesn't matter so long as it's not them on the receiving end. Courts should not be under the control of their government If china or russia had been caught doing these things what would the reaction in the states be then? Would it still be it wasn't the place of the italian courts to make judgement?