Wouldn't mind but this time british troops are involved in it.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America?By John R. MacArthur (Harper's Magazine)
Robert Fisk: America is performing its familiar role of propping up a dictator - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent
It's like watching a train wreck that everyone knows will happen but no one will admit it.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
I see, so if it were just Americans dying, no big deal?
Anayway, it should hardly be news to anyone that our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq have been a failure and will continue to be so. Have we done the unthinkable and forgotten Vietnam?
:-5
Anayway, it should hardly be news to anyone that our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq have been a failure and will continue to be so. Have we done the unthinkable and forgotten Vietnam?
:-5
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
joey2000;1265903 wrote: I see, so if it were just Americans dying, no big deal?
Anayway, it should hardly be news to anyone that our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq have been a failure and will continue to be so. Have we done the unthinkable and forgotten Vietnam?
:-5
Certainly Bush and Blair did when they started this mess.
Blair is additionally guilty of putting aside democracy in the process - may it rest in peace.
Anayway, it should hardly be news to anyone that our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq have been a failure and will continue to be so. Have we done the unthinkable and forgotten Vietnam?
:-5
Certainly Bush and Blair did when they started this mess.
Blair is additionally guilty of putting aside democracy in the process - may it rest in peace.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
If it were only Americans dying there wouldn't be a war going on that is killing masses of civilians in the Middle East, would there?
It's the ability to think of a war in terms of just American deaths that is part of the problem.
I'm quite embarrassed that Canada is involved in any military endeavours other than peace keeping.
I'm much less concerned about military deaths than about civilian. If terrorism is the concern, these wars are creating new terrorists every day and the masterminds behind the attacks failed in their war on terror.
It's the ability to think of a war in terms of just American deaths that is part of the problem.
I'm quite embarrassed that Canada is involved in any military endeavours other than peace keeping.
I'm much less concerned about military deaths than about civilian. If terrorism is the concern, these wars are creating new terrorists every day and the masterminds behind the attacks failed in their war on terror.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
koan;1265949 wrote: If it were only Americans dying there wouldn't be a war going on that is killing masses of civilians in the Middle East, would there?
It's the ability to think of a war in terms of just American deaths that is part of the problem.
I'm quite embarrassed that Canada is involved in any military endeavours other than peace keeping.
I'm much less concerned about military deaths than about civilian. If terrorism is the concern, these wars are creating new terrorists every day and the masterminds behind the attacks failed in their war on terror.
I'd say that the masterminds behind 9/11 have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
It's the ability to think of a war in terms of just American deaths that is part of the problem.
I'm quite embarrassed that Canada is involved in any military endeavours other than peace keeping.
I'm much less concerned about military deaths than about civilian. If terrorism is the concern, these wars are creating new terrorists every day and the masterminds behind the attacks failed in their war on terror.
I'd say that the masterminds behind 9/11 have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
joey2000;1265903 wrote: I see, so if it were just Americans dying, no big deal?
Anayway, it should hardly be news to anyone that our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq have been a failure and will continue to be so. Have we done the unthinkable and forgotten Vietnam?
:-5
I grew up during the vietnam war and watched in disbelief the kent state shootings and the like and the hatred piled on anti-war protesters. Always opuzzled me why people seemed annoyed at the troops and not the government that sent them. If you're conscripted you don't get much choice do you? My country right or wrong still seems to be the order of the day.
Obviously I am more concerned about British troops being killed than american just as you are more concerned about ameriican. It annoys me that we got sucked in to it. I'm impressed you as an american even know there are other nations involved in Afghanistan. We're as bad as you in we let our politicians get away with it.
Anayway, it should hardly be news to anyone that our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq have been a failure and will continue to be so. Have we done the unthinkable and forgotten Vietnam?
:-5
I grew up during the vietnam war and watched in disbelief the kent state shootings and the like and the hatred piled on anti-war protesters. Always opuzzled me why people seemed annoyed at the troops and not the government that sent them. If you're conscripted you don't get much choice do you? My country right or wrong still seems to be the order of the day.
Obviously I am more concerned about British troops being killed than american just as you are more concerned about ameriican. It annoys me that we got sucked in to it. I'm impressed you as an american even know there are other nations involved in Afghanistan. We're as bad as you in we let our politicians get away with it.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
Here is a twist on this topic¦
So often we here the negativity of the war and seldom see the great work being accomplished.
The objective and beliefs of the West is based on Freedom and liberty and the belief that freedom does not come without sacrifice, and sometimes we need to step up and help those who are being suppressed.
In Karbul, women are now free, they no longer need to completely cover themselves in burkas. They are being educated and now can go out in the open. There are beauty parlors opening up and there is a freedom that they have not seen in a long time. They are no longer being publically beaten or killed for showing an ankle.
The Afghanistan equivalent to Pop Idol or Xfactor is in its second year taking the youth of the county by storm. In a country where the Taliban had singing outlawed and punishable by death, people are free to sing and dance and do the things that are just regular nature to us.
As the second season of this show starts and they are going to the country to find young talent, kids are auditioning by the thousands even though they do so under death threats from the Taliban.
The efforts and sacrifice of the soldiers are not in vane, they are spreading the one thing that makes up the most basic fabric of our beliefs, freedom.
Freedom is not easily won, but it is easily lost.
I for one am proud of the great work done by the international forces that are committed, even at great personal sacrifice, to offer the gift of freedom to these people who have lived under the regime of those who would be happy to take our freedoms away from us.
YouTube - Afghan Star Finals - Shrin Mah Nahal
So often we here the negativity of the war and seldom see the great work being accomplished.
The objective and beliefs of the West is based on Freedom and liberty and the belief that freedom does not come without sacrifice, and sometimes we need to step up and help those who are being suppressed.
In Karbul, women are now free, they no longer need to completely cover themselves in burkas. They are being educated and now can go out in the open. There are beauty parlors opening up and there is a freedom that they have not seen in a long time. They are no longer being publically beaten or killed for showing an ankle.
The Afghanistan equivalent to Pop Idol or Xfactor is in its second year taking the youth of the county by storm. In a country where the Taliban had singing outlawed and punishable by death, people are free to sing and dance and do the things that are just regular nature to us.
As the second season of this show starts and they are going to the country to find young talent, kids are auditioning by the thousands even though they do so under death threats from the Taliban.
The efforts and sacrifice of the soldiers are not in vane, they are spreading the one thing that makes up the most basic fabric of our beliefs, freedom.
Freedom is not easily won, but it is easily lost.
I for one am proud of the great work done by the international forces that are committed, even at great personal sacrifice, to offer the gift of freedom to these people who have lived under the regime of those who would be happy to take our freedoms away from us.
YouTube - Afghan Star Finals - Shrin Mah Nahal
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
mikeinie;1265986 wrote: Here is a twist on this topic¦
So often we here the negativity of the war and seldom see the great work being accomplished.
The objective and beliefs of the West is based on Freedom and liberty and the belief that freedom does not come without sacrifice, and sometimes we need to step up and help those who are being suppressed.
In Karbul, women are now free, they no longer need to completely cover themselves in burkas. They are being educated and now can go out in the open. There are beauty parlors opening up and there is a freedom that they have not seen in a long time. They are no longer being publically beaten or killed for showing an ankle.
The Afghanistan equivalent to Pop Idol or Xfactor is in its second year taking the youth of the county by storm. In a country where the Taliban had singing outlawed and punishable by death, people are free to sing and dance and do the things that are just regular nature to us.
As the second season of this show starts and they are going to the country to find young talent, kids are auditioning by the thousands even though they do so under death threats from the Taliban.
The efforts and sacrifice of the soldiers are not in vane, they are spreading the one thing that makes up the most basic fabric of our beliefs, freedom.
Freedom is not easily won, but it is easily lost.
I for one am proud of the great work done by the international forces that are committed, even at great personal sacrifice, to offer the gift of freedom to these people who have lived under the regime of those who would be happy to take our freedoms away from us.
YouTube - Afghan Star Finals - Shrin Mah Nahal
What do you think would have happened if the west hadn't helped the mujahadeen overthrow the government in Kabul in the first place? How did the taliban get to a position where they could take over? Some of the fighters the coalition forces are now fighting were trained by the British and the americans in guerilla warfare-not that they needed much. It's a standing joke that the british hope they come up against the ones trained by the Americans as the ones trained by the SAS are a lot better. The irony just passes by doesn't it.
The only ones that are going to sort out afghanistan is the afghans themselves.
So often we here the negativity of the war and seldom see the great work being accomplished.
The objective and beliefs of the West is based on Freedom and liberty and the belief that freedom does not come without sacrifice, and sometimes we need to step up and help those who are being suppressed.
In Karbul, women are now free, they no longer need to completely cover themselves in burkas. They are being educated and now can go out in the open. There are beauty parlors opening up and there is a freedom that they have not seen in a long time. They are no longer being publically beaten or killed for showing an ankle.
The Afghanistan equivalent to Pop Idol or Xfactor is in its second year taking the youth of the county by storm. In a country where the Taliban had singing outlawed and punishable by death, people are free to sing and dance and do the things that are just regular nature to us.
As the second season of this show starts and they are going to the country to find young talent, kids are auditioning by the thousands even though they do so under death threats from the Taliban.
The efforts and sacrifice of the soldiers are not in vane, they are spreading the one thing that makes up the most basic fabric of our beliefs, freedom.
Freedom is not easily won, but it is easily lost.
I for one am proud of the great work done by the international forces that are committed, even at great personal sacrifice, to offer the gift of freedom to these people who have lived under the regime of those who would be happy to take our freedoms away from us.
YouTube - Afghan Star Finals - Shrin Mah Nahal
What do you think would have happened if the west hadn't helped the mujahadeen overthrow the government in Kabul in the first place? How did the taliban get to a position where they could take over? Some of the fighters the coalition forces are now fighting were trained by the British and the americans in guerilla warfare-not that they needed much. It's a standing joke that the british hope they come up against the ones trained by the Americans as the ones trained by the SAS are a lot better. The irony just passes by doesn't it.
The only ones that are going to sort out afghanistan is the afghans themselves.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
gmc;1265989 wrote: What do you think would have happened if the west hadn't helped the mujahadeen overthrow the government in Kabul in the first place? How did the taliban get to a position where they could take over? Some of the fighters the coalition forces are now fighting were trained by the British and the americans in guerilla warfare-not that they needed much. It's a standing joke that the british hope they come up against the ones trained by the Americans as the ones trained by the SAS are a lot better. The irony just passes by doesn't it.
The only ones that are going to sort out afghanistan is the afghans themselves.
yes we know the Taliban were trained originally by the US & British forces, this was during the cold war when countries like this were used as pawns to help the west win the war against the Soviet Union. All the more reason why we owe it to those people to sort out the mess we created in the first place. It is the price of the victory of the cold war.
The only ones that are going to sort out afghanistan is the afghans themselves.
yes we know the Taliban were trained originally by the US & British forces, this was during the cold war when countries like this were used as pawns to help the west win the war against the Soviet Union. All the more reason why we owe it to those people to sort out the mess we created in the first place. It is the price of the victory of the cold war.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
Bryn Mawr;1265948 wrote: Certainly Bush and Blair did when they started this mess.
Actually, they did it when they continued this mess with muddled objectives/strategies and a lack of appreciation for the cultural differences - a plan which Obama is continuing (every time someone said to vote for him because he was going to end the war quickly I wanted to slap them upside the head - if nothing else in hopes that it would instigate brain cell activity).
koan;1265949 wrote: If it were only Americans dying there wouldn't be a war going on that is killing masses of civilians in the Middle East, would there?
:rolleyes: The war would still be happening. It's mostly Americans there anyway. And given the scope of the conflict, the # of civilians being killed is actually low. Of course any such deaths are tragic, but it's impossible to eliminate that in war.
gmc;1265966 wrote:
Obviously I am more concerned about British troops being killed than american just as you are more concerned about ameriican.Please don't assume you know what I think or am concerned about. With the exception of people I know, I am just as concerned about anyone dying over there regardless of what country they come from. In fact I find the concept odd, frankly; why should it matter what country they're from? This isn't a football game we're talking about.
I'm impressed you as an american even know there are other nations involved in Afghanistan. Thanks but I can't imagine why; it's common knowledge.
Actually, they did it when they continued this mess with muddled objectives/strategies and a lack of appreciation for the cultural differences - a plan which Obama is continuing (every time someone said to vote for him because he was going to end the war quickly I wanted to slap them upside the head - if nothing else in hopes that it would instigate brain cell activity).
koan;1265949 wrote: If it were only Americans dying there wouldn't be a war going on that is killing masses of civilians in the Middle East, would there?
:rolleyes: The war would still be happening. It's mostly Americans there anyway. And given the scope of the conflict, the # of civilians being killed is actually low. Of course any such deaths are tragic, but it's impossible to eliminate that in war.
gmc;1265966 wrote:
Obviously I am more concerned about British troops being killed than american just as you are more concerned about ameriican.Please don't assume you know what I think or am concerned about. With the exception of people I know, I am just as concerned about anyone dying over there regardless of what country they come from. In fact I find the concept odd, frankly; why should it matter what country they're from? This isn't a football game we're talking about.
I'm impressed you as an american even know there are other nations involved in Afghanistan. Thanks but I can't imagine why; it's common knowledge.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
mikeinie;1265986 wrote: Here is a twist on this topic¦
So often we here the negativity of the war and seldom see the great work being accomplished.
The objective and beliefs of the West is based on Freedom and liberty and the belief that freedom does not come without sacrifice, and sometimes we need to step up and help those who are being suppressed.
In Karbul, women are now free, they no longer need to completely cover themselves in burkas. They are being educated and now can go out in the open. There are beauty parlors opening up and there is a freedom that they have not seen in a long time. They are no longer being publically beaten or killed for showing an ankle.
The Afghanistan equivalent to Pop Idol or Xfactor is in its second year taking the youth of the county by storm. In a country where the Taliban had singing outlawed and punishable by death, people are free to sing and dance and do the things that are just regular nature to us.
As the second season of this show starts and they are going to the country to find young talent, kids are auditioning by the thousands even though they do so under death threats from the Taliban.
The efforts and sacrifice of the soldiers are not in vane, they are spreading the one thing that makes up the most basic fabric of our beliefs, freedom.
Freedom is not easily won, but it is easily lost.
I for one am proud of the great work done by the international forces that are committed, even at great personal sacrifice, to offer the gift of freedom to these people who have lived under the regime of those who would be happy to take our freedoms away from us.
YouTube - Afghan Star Finals - Shrin Mah Nahal
Excellent points, although I still disagree that continuing any of those conflicts is getting us very far or worth the sacrifice. Great, we planted the seed of freedom. IMO we should say bye and good luck w/that. These people have been blowing the #$@! out of each other since the beginning of time; it isn't about to change....but if by some miracle it does, it won't be by us jamming it down their throat.
So often we here the negativity of the war and seldom see the great work being accomplished.
The objective and beliefs of the West is based on Freedom and liberty and the belief that freedom does not come without sacrifice, and sometimes we need to step up and help those who are being suppressed.
In Karbul, women are now free, they no longer need to completely cover themselves in burkas. They are being educated and now can go out in the open. There are beauty parlors opening up and there is a freedom that they have not seen in a long time. They are no longer being publically beaten or killed for showing an ankle.
The Afghanistan equivalent to Pop Idol or Xfactor is in its second year taking the youth of the county by storm. In a country where the Taliban had singing outlawed and punishable by death, people are free to sing and dance and do the things that are just regular nature to us.
As the second season of this show starts and they are going to the country to find young talent, kids are auditioning by the thousands even though they do so under death threats from the Taliban.
The efforts and sacrifice of the soldiers are not in vane, they are spreading the one thing that makes up the most basic fabric of our beliefs, freedom.
Freedom is not easily won, but it is easily lost.
I for one am proud of the great work done by the international forces that are committed, even at great personal sacrifice, to offer the gift of freedom to these people who have lived under the regime of those who would be happy to take our freedoms away from us.
YouTube - Afghan Star Finals - Shrin Mah Nahal
Excellent points, although I still disagree that continuing any of those conflicts is getting us very far or worth the sacrifice. Great, we planted the seed of freedom. IMO we should say bye and good luck w/that. These people have been blowing the #$@! out of each other since the beginning of time; it isn't about to change....but if by some miracle it does, it won't be by us jamming it down their throat.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
mikeinie;1265992 wrote: yes we know the Taliban were trained originally by the US & British forces, this was during the cold war when countries like this were used as pawns to help the west win the war against the Soviet Union. All the more reason why we owe it to those people to sort out the mess we created in the first place. It is the price of the victory of the cold war.
This whole mess goes back to polices and interference in other countries for short term gain during the cold war. Best way to sort is to stop trying to meddle. not keep doing it. The Iraq war was about oil and nothing else.
posted by joey
Thanks but I can't imagine why; it's common knowledge.
Misplaced sarcasm on my part perhaps. A surprising number of your countrymen seem unaware of the fact. Most people in this country now want our troops out regardless and aren't buying the notion it's about preventing terrorism.
This whole mess goes back to polices and interference in other countries for short term gain during the cold war. Best way to sort is to stop trying to meddle. not keep doing it. The Iraq war was about oil and nothing else.
posted by joey
Thanks but I can't imagine why; it's common knowledge.
Misplaced sarcasm on my part perhaps. A surprising number of your countrymen seem unaware of the fact. Most people in this country now want our troops out regardless and aren't buying the notion it's about preventing terrorism.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
gmc;1266031 wrote:
Misplaced sarcasm on my part perhaps. A surprising number of your countrymen seem unaware of the fact. Most people in this country now want our troops out regardless and aren't buying the notion it's about preventing terrorism.
Come on GMC, I live in Kansas for crying out loud and have never met anyone that was unaware of other countries troops being involved. I think this perception is just constantly thrown out by people who hate the US or want to make us look stupid.
Misplaced sarcasm on my part perhaps. A surprising number of your countrymen seem unaware of the fact. Most people in this country now want our troops out regardless and aren't buying the notion it's about preventing terrorism.
Come on GMC, I live in Kansas for crying out loud and have never met anyone that was unaware of other countries troops being involved. I think this perception is just constantly thrown out by people who hate the US or want to make us look stupid.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
YZGI;1266039 wrote: Come on GMC, I live in Kansas for crying out loud and have never met anyone that was unaware of other countries troops being involved. I think this perception is just constantly thrown out by people who hate the US or want to make us look stupid.
Well, I think it is more that people come across one or two Americans who don’t know, and then people paint everyone with the same brush for convenience. I am not slagging Americans here but this was actually pretty funny.
A couple of years ago in a hotel bar in the west coast of ireland I met a woman from Virginia, now I must say that not only was it her first time out of the USA but it was also the first time ever even out of her own State. She started going on about how great George Bush was and how the rest of the world let down the USA by leaving them alone to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq all by themselves.
She was pretty shocked to learn what was actually going on. Unfortunately it is those types that are actually out there and provide ammunition to those who like to feed off of the stereotype.
Well, I think it is more that people come across one or two Americans who don’t know, and then people paint everyone with the same brush for convenience. I am not slagging Americans here but this was actually pretty funny.
A couple of years ago in a hotel bar in the west coast of ireland I met a woman from Virginia, now I must say that not only was it her first time out of the USA but it was also the first time ever even out of her own State. She started going on about how great George Bush was and how the rest of the world let down the USA by leaving them alone to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq all by themselves.
She was pretty shocked to learn what was actually going on. Unfortunately it is those types that are actually out there and provide ammunition to those who like to feed off of the stereotype.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
joey2000;1266001 wrote:
:rolleyes: The war would still be happening. It's mostly Americans there anyway. And given the scope of the conflict, the # of civilians being killed is actually low. Of course any such deaths are tragic, but it's impossible to eliminate that in war.
If only americans were dying it would have to be a civil war on American soil :rolleyes:
This justification of civilian deaths is horrible. It wouldn't be written off so lightly if it were American civilians, or Canadian, or any other civilians belonging to the aggressing countries. We are all becoming experts in justification. I don't think the Afghans and Iraqis would consider their death toll "actually low"
The civilian deaths could have been eliminated by leaving other countries to govern themselves. The main concern now seems to be the crisis of how to get out and still look good. Withdrawal is complicated by not wanting to appear to have made a mistake. I don't think anything they do now will change that fact.
Mike, what we think is better for another country is best kept to conversation and not force. I'm sure somewhere there are people listing the positive changes that have occured in the US as a result of 9/11 but the only people doing that are similarly trying to justify the insane.
:rolleyes: The war would still be happening. It's mostly Americans there anyway. And given the scope of the conflict, the # of civilians being killed is actually low. Of course any such deaths are tragic, but it's impossible to eliminate that in war.
If only americans were dying it would have to be a civil war on American soil :rolleyes:
This justification of civilian deaths is horrible. It wouldn't be written off so lightly if it were American civilians, or Canadian, or any other civilians belonging to the aggressing countries. We are all becoming experts in justification. I don't think the Afghans and Iraqis would consider their death toll "actually low"
The civilian deaths could have been eliminated by leaving other countries to govern themselves. The main concern now seems to be the crisis of how to get out and still look good. Withdrawal is complicated by not wanting to appear to have made a mistake. I don't think anything they do now will change that fact.
Mike, what we think is better for another country is best kept to conversation and not force. I'm sure somewhere there are people listing the positive changes that have occured in the US as a result of 9/11 but the only people doing that are similarly trying to justify the insane.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
YZGI;1266039 wrote: Come on GMC, I live in Kansas for crying out loud and have never met anyone that was unaware of other countries troops being involved. I think this perception is just constantly thrown out by people who hate the US or want to make us look stupid.
I've heard of Kansas-it's in Missouri isn't it? I was joking a little bit but there are on or two that seem unaware and are convinced everything posted about iraq is necessarily anti-american as against being anti-american policy.
If I say things like Tony Blair is a lying tosspot you don't see UK posters accusing me of being anti-British but if I happen to call GW a brainless tosspot I'm being anti-american yet I would put it to you both are valid criticisms of our respective leaderships. You can call tony blair a liar and a crook and I wouldn't assume you were anti-british-just an astute observer.
History keeps repeating itself. It's been obvious this has been a mistake from the very start. I think in part people just don't want to believe their leadership can be so bloody stupid or that politicians will lie to get things their own way and prefer to believe their intentions are honourable despite all the evidence of it just being nothing more than plain stupidity.
I've heard of Kansas-it's in Missouri isn't it? I was joking a little bit but there are on or two that seem unaware and are convinced everything posted about iraq is necessarily anti-american as against being anti-american policy.
If I say things like Tony Blair is a lying tosspot you don't see UK posters accusing me of being anti-British but if I happen to call GW a brainless tosspot I'm being anti-american yet I would put it to you both are valid criticisms of our respective leaderships. You can call tony blair a liar and a crook and I wouldn't assume you were anti-british-just an astute observer.
History keeps repeating itself. It's been obvious this has been a mistake from the very start. I think in part people just don't want to believe their leadership can be so bloody stupid or that politicians will lie to get things their own way and prefer to believe their intentions are honourable despite all the evidence of it just being nothing more than plain stupidity.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
Could someone please define what would be regarded as a victory for the Western Powers in this conflict, once Western troops have been withdrawn from Afghanistan?
Does it include the destruction of the Taliban, for example?
Would it include the elimination of any future Taliban participation in Afghan politics and government?
Would it exclude an Islamic-Fundamentalist government coming back into power in, say, the following five years?
Would it include the Afghan government remaining grateful for the military intervention for, say, the following five years?
Defining what would be an acceptable result, now, would set a benchmark by which we can eventually decide who won and who lost.
Does it include the destruction of the Taliban, for example?
Would it include the elimination of any future Taliban participation in Afghan politics and government?
Would it exclude an Islamic-Fundamentalist government coming back into power in, say, the following five years?
Would it include the Afghan government remaining grateful for the military intervention for, say, the following five years?
Defining what would be an acceptable result, now, would set a benchmark by which we can eventually decide who won and who lost.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
koan;1266069 wrote: If only americans were dying it would have to be a civil war on American soil :rolleyes: I'm not even sure what you're trying to say, but suspect it makes little sense regardless, frankly.
This justification of civilian deaths is horrible. It's not a "justification," it's just a reality of any war/conflict of this scope and/or duration. War is messy. It's ugly. It's tragic. This is a part of that.
It wouldn't be written off so lightly
Who is writing it off lightly?
I don't think the Afghans and Iraqis would consider their death toll "actually low" I meant "low" given the scope of the conflict...ie it's not like we're just going in and blowing whole towns off the map etc. We have gone to no small pains to keep civilian deaths to a minimum. If we didn't care about that, this war would be A WHOLE LOT easier. We could just go in with nukes and turn the country into glass. But we aren't; far, far from it.
The civilian deaths could have been eliminated by leaving other countries to govern themselves. Yeah because the people in power before were treating the population so well and no civilians were being killed.
:-5
The main concern now seems to be the crisis of how to get out and still look good. Withdrawal is complicated by not wanting to appear to have made a mistake. I don't think anything they do now will change that fact.
On that we agree completely.
gmc;1266031 wrote: A surprising number of your countrymen seem unaware of the fact.
I have to wonder how you arrived at this conclusion-?
The war is not exactly so popular over here either, FYI.
This justification of civilian deaths is horrible. It's not a "justification," it's just a reality of any war/conflict of this scope and/or duration. War is messy. It's ugly. It's tragic. This is a part of that.
It wouldn't be written off so lightly
Who is writing it off lightly? I don't think the Afghans and Iraqis would consider their death toll "actually low" I meant "low" given the scope of the conflict...ie it's not like we're just going in and blowing whole towns off the map etc. We have gone to no small pains to keep civilian deaths to a minimum. If we didn't care about that, this war would be A WHOLE LOT easier. We could just go in with nukes and turn the country into glass. But we aren't; far, far from it.
The civilian deaths could have been eliminated by leaving other countries to govern themselves. Yeah because the people in power before were treating the population so well and no civilians were being killed.
:-5
The main concern now seems to be the crisis of how to get out and still look good. Withdrawal is complicated by not wanting to appear to have made a mistake. I don't think anything they do now will change that fact.
On that we agree completely.
gmc;1266031 wrote: A surprising number of your countrymen seem unaware of the fact.
I have to wonder how you arrived at this conclusion-?
The war is not exactly so popular over here either, FYI.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
mikeinie;1266061 wrote: Well, I think it is more that people come across one or two Americans who don’t know, and then people paint everyone with the same brush for convenience.
Or out of pure foolishness. This "ugly American" stereotype is so tired. Quite a few of us over here are not so ignorant or arrogant, FYI (and I've met more than a few Europeans who were).
Or out of pure foolishness. This "ugly American" stereotype is so tired. Quite a few of us over here are not so ignorant or arrogant, FYI (and I've met more than a few Europeans who were).
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
joey2000;1265903 wrote: I see, so if it were just Americans dying, no big deal?
koan;1265949 wrote: If it were only Americans dying there wouldn't be a war going on that is killing masses of civilians in the Middle East, would there?
It's the ability to think of a war in terms of just American deaths that is part of the problem.
joey2000;1266001 wrote:
:rolleyes: The war would still be happening. It's mostly Americans there anyway.
One last try, because it's mostly an aside.
Americans go to Afghanistan. Americans have a war. Americans and Afghans die.
option two
Americans go to Afghanistan. Only Americans die. Who were they fighting? Unless they only fought themselves they got their asses kicked because they managed to kill no one else but themselves.
Additionally, I highly doubt it's mostly Americans existing in Afghanistan. Should we check the number of US troops vs the population count?
I realize that I'm isolating your statements from context because of the minor error of you having left out the word "troops" but, hopefully, you get the point:
Only acknowledging death on one side of an armed conflict is narcissistic and it is appallingly common.
If you still don't get it, I don't know what to say other than "I'm so sorry."
koan;1265949 wrote: If it were only Americans dying there wouldn't be a war going on that is killing masses of civilians in the Middle East, would there?
It's the ability to think of a war in terms of just American deaths that is part of the problem.
joey2000;1266001 wrote:
:rolleyes: The war would still be happening. It's mostly Americans there anyway.
One last try, because it's mostly an aside.
Americans go to Afghanistan. Americans have a war. Americans and Afghans die.
option two
Americans go to Afghanistan. Only Americans die. Who were they fighting? Unless they only fought themselves they got their asses kicked because they managed to kill no one else but themselves.
Additionally, I highly doubt it's mostly Americans existing in Afghanistan. Should we check the number of US troops vs the population count?
I realize that I'm isolating your statements from context because of the minor error of you having left out the word "troops" but, hopefully, you get the point:
Only acknowledging death on one side of an armed conflict is narcissistic and it is appallingly common.
If you still don't get it, I don't know what to say other than "I'm so sorry."
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
spot;1266300 wrote: Could someone please define what would be regarded as a victory for the Western Powers in this conflict, once Western troops have been withdrawn from Afghanistan? Another day!
spot;1266300 wrote: Does it include the destruction of the Taliban, for example?
Would it include the elimination of any future Taliban participation in Afghan politics and government?
Would it exclude an Islamic-Fundamentalist government coming back into power in, say, the following five years?
Would it include the Afghan government remaining grateful for the military intervention for, say, the following five years?If surviving another day means all of these then that is what America will most likely do
spot;1266300 wrote: Defining what would be an acceptable result, now, would set a benchmark by which we can eventually decide who won and who lost.A guarantee that we will never be threatened as a group. which will not occur anytime soon, so we might possibly expect more wars with whichever country seems more susceptible to elimination.
Groups thrive by protecting an array of prized concepts and values.
It could be that more and more individuals are carrying forth the idea of membership in a larger group such as world or international grouping. And it may be true that there are more Americans resistant to that idea because it has as a culture and nation conceived more that are interpreted as most likely to succeed. But theres been so much fracturing happening within the U.S at the cultural level that it may be inevitable anyway.
Many such as yourself may be telling us Americans that its okay and we should just give up the ghost and let it happen. It probably will eventually, but as long as there are perceived threats out there the onset will be retarded.
spot;1266300 wrote: Does it include the destruction of the Taliban, for example?
Would it include the elimination of any future Taliban participation in Afghan politics and government?
Would it exclude an Islamic-Fundamentalist government coming back into power in, say, the following five years?
Would it include the Afghan government remaining grateful for the military intervention for, say, the following five years?If surviving another day means all of these then that is what America will most likely do
spot;1266300 wrote: Defining what would be an acceptable result, now, would set a benchmark by which we can eventually decide who won and who lost.A guarantee that we will never be threatened as a group. which will not occur anytime soon, so we might possibly expect more wars with whichever country seems more susceptible to elimination.
Groups thrive by protecting an array of prized concepts and values.
It could be that more and more individuals are carrying forth the idea of membership in a larger group such as world or international grouping. And it may be true that there are more Americans resistant to that idea because it has as a culture and nation conceived more that are interpreted as most likely to succeed. But theres been so much fracturing happening within the U.S at the cultural level that it may be inevitable anyway.
Many such as yourself may be telling us Americans that its okay and we should just give up the ghost and let it happen. It probably will eventually, but as long as there are perceived threats out there the onset will be retarded.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
koan;1266368 wrote:
I realize that I'm isolating your statements from context because of the minor error of you having left out the word "troops"
Not an error; I assumed you knew I was talking about (and thought you were talking about) the Allied forces, not all people there. Yes, Afghans are dying as well, both combatants and civilians. I don't see anyone saying otherwise; in fact, it's stating the very obvious. Is there a point there or was that simply a general observation?
I realize that I'm isolating your statements from context because of the minor error of you having left out the word "troops"
Not an error; I assumed you knew I was talking about (and thought you were talking about) the Allied forces, not all people there. Yes, Afghans are dying as well, both combatants and civilians. I don't see anyone saying otherwise; in fact, it's stating the very obvious. Is there a point there or was that simply a general observation?
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
spot;1266300 wrote: Could someone please define what would be regarded as a victory for the Western Powers in this conflict, once Western troops have been withdrawn from Afghanistan?
Does it include the destruction of the Taliban, for example?
Would it include the elimination of any future Taliban participation in Afghan politics and government?
Would it exclude an Islamic-Fundamentalist government coming back into power in, say, the following five years?
Would it include the Afghan government remaining grateful for the military intervention for, say, the following five years?
Defining what would be an acceptable result, now, would set a benchmark by which we can eventually decide who won and who lost.
Well, when you get right down to it, like the oil in Iraq, the real issue in Afghanistan is that new Trans-Afghanistan Gas Pipeline that is needed to run from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan, to bring gas supplies to the west, is a few years behind schedule because one of the main area that the gas line needs to run through is in the area that is still currently occupied by the Taliban.
Once the gas pipe line is up and running and secure, then it will be deemed the war is a success, but they will never tell you that.
Does it include the destruction of the Taliban, for example?
Would it include the elimination of any future Taliban participation in Afghan politics and government?
Would it exclude an Islamic-Fundamentalist government coming back into power in, say, the following five years?
Would it include the Afghan government remaining grateful for the military intervention for, say, the following five years?
Defining what would be an acceptable result, now, would set a benchmark by which we can eventually decide who won and who lost.
Well, when you get right down to it, like the oil in Iraq, the real issue in Afghanistan is that new Trans-Afghanistan Gas Pipeline that is needed to run from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan, to bring gas supplies to the west, is a few years behind schedule because one of the main area that the gas line needs to run through is in the area that is still currently occupied by the Taliban.
Once the gas pipe line is up and running and secure, then it will be deemed the war is a success, but they will never tell you that.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
Yeah this is all about oil. :rolleyes: Haven't heard that one in awhile. cmon......
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
joey2000;1266420 wrote: Yeah this is all about oil. :rolleyes: Haven't heard that one in awhile. cmon......
So, have a shot at it yourself. Define what would be regarded as a victory for the Western Powers in this conflict, once Western troops have been withdrawn from Afghanistan.
Does it include the destruction of the Taliban, for example?
Would it include the elimination of any future Taliban participation in Afghan politics and government?
Would it exclude an Islamic-Fundamentalist government coming back into power in, say, the following five years?
Would it include the Afghan government remaining grateful for the military intervention for, say, the following five years?
Defining what would be an acceptable result, now, would set a benchmark by which we can eventually decide who won and who lost.
So, have a shot at it yourself. Define what would be regarded as a victory for the Western Powers in this conflict, once Western troops have been withdrawn from Afghanistan.
Does it include the destruction of the Taliban, for example?
Would it include the elimination of any future Taliban participation in Afghan politics and government?
Would it exclude an Islamic-Fundamentalist government coming back into power in, say, the following five years?
Would it include the Afghan government remaining grateful for the military intervention for, say, the following five years?
Defining what would be an acceptable result, now, would set a benchmark by which we can eventually decide who won and who lost.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
joey2000;1266420 wrote: Yeah this is all about oil. :rolleyes: Haven't heard that one in awhile. cmon......
Look it up, the information is available on line. oh.. in this case, no it is not oil, it is natural gas.
Look it up, the information is available on line. oh.. in this case, no it is not oil, it is natural gas.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
I have. How much oil do you think we get from Iraq and/or Afghanistan? FYI it's a small % of our total FYI.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
joey2000;1266449 wrote: I have. How much oil do you think we get from Iraq and/or Afghanistan? FYI it's a small % of our total FYI.
Maybe it is not about supplying the USA. The gas line is supposed to be to supply India and Pakistan, two of the fasted growing economies in the world. The gas line is being paid for by the Asia Central bank. So what has this got to do with the USA? Well guess who owes China trillions of dollars.
Maybe it is not about supplying the USA. The gas line is supposed to be to supply India and Pakistan, two of the fasted growing economies in the world. The gas line is being paid for by the Asia Central bank. So what has this got to do with the USA? Well guess who owes China trillions of dollars.
History Promises Disaster in Afghanistan for Blind America
joey2000;1266449 wrote: I have. How much oil do you think we get from Iraq and/or Afghanistan? FYI it's a small % of our total FYI.
It's Mr. Micawber all over again.
If, for example, America can supply 50% of its needs and can obtain 45% of its needs from its interests abroad then it needs to get more from other sources. The supply from Iraq may only be small in overall terms but it could well make every difference between continued expansion and a restricted economy.
It's Mr. Micawber all over again.
If, for example, America can supply 50% of its needs and can obtain 45% of its needs from its interests abroad then it needs to get more from other sources. The supply from Iraq may only be small in overall terms but it could well make every difference between continued expansion and a restricted economy.