This is a thread to let JJ reminisce if he's inclined.
South Africa, as you were growing up, was much like Israel is now. The lesser ethnic group was restricted in where it could live and what it could do, obliged to carry passes at all times and generally treated as non-people. It had far less financial clout. It was an employment resource without national voting rights. I'm not sure what they did for a passport if they wanted to travel abroad.
Has everyone renounced that perspective now? Because if the South Africans could, in the space of twenty years, the Israelis could certainly manage it now if they made the effort.
Was the transition, the giving up of practical and assumed superiority, painful?
How far is South Africa now from a balanced society?
South Africa then and now
South Africa then and now
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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jones jones
- Posts: 6601
- Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:30 am
South Africa then and now
I have a reply but every time I try to paste it here I get a "internal server error" message. Sorry.
"…I hate how I don’t feel real enough unless people are watching." — Chuck Palahniuk, Invisible Monsters
South Africa then and now
spot;1364616 wrote: This is a thread to let JJ reminisce if he's inclined.
South Africa, as you were growing up, was much like Israel is now. The lesser ethnic group was restricted in where it could live and what it could do, obliged to carry passes at all times and generally treated as non-people. It had far less financial clout. It was an employment resource without national voting rights. I'm not sure what they did for a passport if they wanted to travel abroad.
Has everyone renounced that perspective now? Because if the South Africans could, in the space of twenty years, the Israelis could certainly manage it now if they made the effort.
Was the transition, the giving up of practical and assumed superiority, painful?
How far is South Africa now from a balanced society?
Other parallels, how the leadership was feted and supported by the west in their struggle against the terrorists who wanted freedom and equality while the peoples of those said countries thought apartheid was something to be frowned upon - remember how reagan and thatcher branded the ANC as terrorists?
Israel itself was a terrorist state led by known terrorists in the early years.
South Africa, as you were growing up, was much like Israel is now. The lesser ethnic group was restricted in where it could live and what it could do, obliged to carry passes at all times and generally treated as non-people. It had far less financial clout. It was an employment resource without national voting rights. I'm not sure what they did for a passport if they wanted to travel abroad.
Has everyone renounced that perspective now? Because if the South Africans could, in the space of twenty years, the Israelis could certainly manage it now if they made the effort.
Was the transition, the giving up of practical and assumed superiority, painful?
How far is South Africa now from a balanced society?
Other parallels, how the leadership was feted and supported by the west in their struggle against the terrorists who wanted freedom and equality while the peoples of those said countries thought apartheid was something to be frowned upon - remember how reagan and thatcher branded the ANC as terrorists?
Israel itself was a terrorist state led by known terrorists in the early years.
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jones jones
- Posts: 6601
- Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:30 am
South Africa then and now
Of course almost everything about the so called "apartheid era" was inherently uncivilized and totally unacceptable. However the tabloids had a field day and quite often unashamedly manufactured incidents for overseas consumption. That is not to say that the police and security forces there were blameless; quite the contrary is of course true.
Any policy or doctrine based solely on where or what you may do depending on the color of your skin can never be condoned. However there was a lot more to separate developement than met the jaundiced eye of the Left overseas. In any event apartheid is history now and a debate around it now would be futile and time consuming.
Answering your questions, on the other hand is far easier. Of course not everyone in South Africa has renounced racial discrimination, just as not everyone in Britain or America or Europe or Africa hasn't. Just ask any member of a white supremacy movement or skinhead group such as the Aryan Nations, Klan, National Alliance, National Socialist Movement, The Nationalist Movement, White Revolution, Afrikaanse Weerstand Beweging or a black racist like Mr. Julius Malema the president of the ANC Youth League.
I believe the transition from and sacrifice of practical superiority was quite painless for most whites who remained in South Africa after 1994. Why? Well they wanted to get back into world sport so that they could thrash the Poms, the Aussies and the Kiwis at rugby and cricket of course! No I jest. Unlike in many countries where such a transformation has taken place, in South Africa there was no bloodbath or ethnic cleansing. The transition was accomplished in a civilized manner. Make what you wish of that statement.
Your final question is much more difficult as the answer will smack of "sour grapes" no matter how it is couched. Affirmative action has make it practically impossible for more than a handfull of white school-leavers and university graduates to find employment outside of a family owned business. The country is now blessed ... cursed? with the most liberal constitution to be found anywhere on this planet. As a result if you have the audacity to try to protect yourself and your property from the evildoer, who is quite able and prepared to murder you, you might well find yourself charged with attempted murder if you use any kind of weapon against them.
My opinion? There are many more black billionaires in South Africa now than ever before, but unfortunately there are also many more poverty stricken blacks now than previously. "Refugees" aka drug dealers, pimps and human traffickers, mainly from Nigeria, are flooding the country as well as thousands of Zimbabweans in search of some respite from the despot who continues to rule their country. Often genuine refugees are prepared to work for much less than the South African labor force who have well organized unions and this had led to tension and continuing outbreaks of xenophobia.
But enough for now. I need to send much more positive energy into the Cosmos or I may once again become very depressed. :-5
Any policy or doctrine based solely on where or what you may do depending on the color of your skin can never be condoned. However there was a lot more to separate developement than met the jaundiced eye of the Left overseas. In any event apartheid is history now and a debate around it now would be futile and time consuming.
Answering your questions, on the other hand is far easier. Of course not everyone in South Africa has renounced racial discrimination, just as not everyone in Britain or America or Europe or Africa hasn't. Just ask any member of a white supremacy movement or skinhead group such as the Aryan Nations, Klan, National Alliance, National Socialist Movement, The Nationalist Movement, White Revolution, Afrikaanse Weerstand Beweging or a black racist like Mr. Julius Malema the president of the ANC Youth League.
I believe the transition from and sacrifice of practical superiority was quite painless for most whites who remained in South Africa after 1994. Why? Well they wanted to get back into world sport so that they could thrash the Poms, the Aussies and the Kiwis at rugby and cricket of course! No I jest. Unlike in many countries where such a transformation has taken place, in South Africa there was no bloodbath or ethnic cleansing. The transition was accomplished in a civilized manner. Make what you wish of that statement.
Your final question is much more difficult as the answer will smack of "sour grapes" no matter how it is couched. Affirmative action has make it practically impossible for more than a handfull of white school-leavers and university graduates to find employment outside of a family owned business. The country is now blessed ... cursed? with the most liberal constitution to be found anywhere on this planet. As a result if you have the audacity to try to protect yourself and your property from the evildoer, who is quite able and prepared to murder you, you might well find yourself charged with attempted murder if you use any kind of weapon against them.
My opinion? There are many more black billionaires in South Africa now than ever before, but unfortunately there are also many more poverty stricken blacks now than previously. "Refugees" aka drug dealers, pimps and human traffickers, mainly from Nigeria, are flooding the country as well as thousands of Zimbabweans in search of some respite from the despot who continues to rule their country. Often genuine refugees are prepared to work for much less than the South African labor force who have well organized unions and this had led to tension and continuing outbreaks of xenophobia.
But enough for now. I need to send much more positive energy into the Cosmos or I may once again become very depressed. :-5
"…I hate how I don’t feel real enough unless people are watching." — Chuck Palahniuk, Invisible Monsters
South Africa then and now
Thank you, that took quite some effort. I'll read it several times.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.