Unions

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:08 pm

I'm mixed on how I feel about unions.

I've been on the executive of a union and was lucky that the executive I belong to was elected to "save" the union so we were all there for altruistic reasons. As soon as the union was safe the executive started to corrupt.

Ultimately, the unions become self serving. Their primary goal becomes self-survival and the executives become more concerned with their pay raises than with what they've done to earn any pay at all. The secondary goal is to make their union better than being a bunch of non-union workers.

I do think that that workers need to collectively bargain.

A bigger issue for me is that Canada's Labour Laws have eroded. They used to give workers rights but now they have lowered their standards and the wording even shows that they favour employers. For example: It used to be mandatory to give paid breaks now they only have to give an unpaid half hour lunch break on a shift of 5 or more hours and paid 15 minute breaks are only a courtesy. I've pointed out to employers that people work more efficiently with fewer mistakes if they get these breaks and that not giving them shows how uncourteous they are. There is never an honest reply, the response is "we don't legally have to."

I'm not overly concerned with 15 minute coffee breaks, that was just an example. I've started wondering if it would be useful to have mandatory unions for all workers to replace the protection the government used to offer. I'm starting to believe there should be a receptionists union, a retail workers union, manual labour union, etc. But my experiences in unions also makes me think there needs to be reforms in the union structure so people can get a job without being a member of the union first, and seniority muscle flexing goes out the window.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:23 pm

The question seems to be: By what means does grouping flourish in a honest and caring way? So far, we haven't really seen one to my knowledge so I think it must begin with early childhood education. If children are taught in a cooperative manner rather than a competitive one, meaningful grouping would take hold. David Sloan Wilson has come to the same conclusion and lays out his theory in Evolution For Everyone.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:28 pm

a cooperative manor
Does that have apartments for sale?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:31 pm

AnneBoleyn;1385210 wrote: Does that have apartments for sale?oops! fixed! Thanks for pointing that out.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:34 pm

I don't think we should be able to go back & fix our mistakes. This makes reality unreal. Live with them............the mistakes, I mean.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:11 pm

By quoting him you immortalize the mistake. That's the benefit to quoting someone, if they go back and delete or change it, they can't change the bit in your quote. If a person wants to go back and fix it anyway that's their prerogative. Posts do, on rare occasions, get quoted by the media so... there's some benefit to fixing grammatical or spelling errors.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:28 pm

Posts do, on rare occasions, get quoted by the media so... there's some benefit to fixing grammatical or spelling errors.
How would the media know what's a mistake or spelling error? Ever read those trailers that run under the news? So full of errors I often am forced to run screaming from the room. That's how offended I get. I even saw this on BBC News! I had to be scraped from the floor over that one!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:35 pm

AnneBoleyn;1385241 wrote: How would the media know what's a mistake or spelling error? Ever read those trailers that run under the news? So full of errors I often am forced to run screaming from the room. That's how offended I get. I even saw this on BBC News! I had to be scraped from the floor over that one!That's too bad. Perhaps you're not spending enough time with your cats so they can help sooth your anxiety.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:43 pm

You are so right! I'm going to grab a cat right now, against his/her will & force my hugs & kisses upon him/her. Like a charm, works every time.

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:56 pm

What a way to derail a thread guys!!!

SOLAR_FLARE · Post by **SOLAR_FLARE** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:39 pm

There is nothing wrong with unions. The members should vote on everything, including pay for representatives. The reps should be there only to implement the choices made by the members. Distributed power is not corruptable.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:11 am

Welcome to ForumGarden, Solar Flare.

Nice to have a new voice on the boards.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:51 am

The danger with unions is the danger with government. The representatives are incentivized to change things when no more change is necessary. They have to justify their existence, and pointing out that you struck a perfect balance for your constituents and expertly, wisely, did nothing from that point ... it just lacks the impact of authoring new legislation or negotiating a richer benefit package. Even now, people are calling Ron Paul ineffective as a legislator because he didn't add enough laws to our swollen books and was often on the losing side of votes that increased the size & scope of gov't.

Imagine if the fire dept was afraid of getting shut down because they didn't have enough fires to fight.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:48 am

Unions haven't done anything for our local economy in the last 30 years except to cost us jobs.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:18 am

flopstock;1385314 wrote: Unions haven't done anything for our local economy in the last 30 years except to cost us jobs.Aren't the union members part of your community and contribute to the local economy? Union jobs, because they represent stable, long term employment, add directly to the economic health of a community for home values, school funding and so on.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:05 am

koan;1385287 wrote: Welcome to ForumGarden, Solar Flare.

Nice to have a new voice on the boards.Yes, SF, welcome!

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:55 am

I'm a unionist and a very proud one. I belong to two and looking at another. I am happy to stand in the rain and support people when fighting for their rights. And may I say they are not fighting for new rights but the old ones that large corporations try to take away when they think nobody is looking. It is a constant struggle.

What has always amazed me is people have an attitude that soldiers (and the military in general) protect them from foreign aggressive influences who may take away all their rights........Unions have soldiers too..... they protect from the inside from our own aggressive influences that mean to take away peoples' hard fought for rights.

When on a building site it's interesting to see the reaction of men and women who don't join their appropriate Union. when they say I'm paid well and don't think they need a Union and unionists are all thugs etc etc etc. That's when you tell them - Fine would you mind handing back your free work boots, hard hat, protective PPE, that harness keeping you alive, all those safety regulations that have you going home to your family at night you'll not be needing those. Oh that that superannuation you pick up on retirement? hand that back as well. What? did you think all these things were gifts from the company?

The tied is turning I can tell you right now that large companies are now making out that it is all a gift from them . Especially when they can tell their workers that if they leave in the first six months of employment they are to pay back the cost of the PPE gear. Now considering that you (by law) may not work on a site without this legislated uniform why are the workers paying for it? Why? Because the unions have been stopped from doing their job, the rights of workers are being dissolved by workplace agreements and underhanded tactics of being offered better wages......but trust me in the end the company gets all it's money back.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:23 am

This is a prime example of why we need unions to protect us from government legislation.

Key features of the Bill abolishing the ABCC

The House of Representatives on Thursday, February 16, passed the Government’s construction Industrial Relations Bill, abolishing the ABCC.

The Bill will now proceed to the Senate where the next sitting commences on February 27.

The key features of the Bill are as follows:

It abolishes the Office of the Australian Building and Construction Commissioner (ABCC) and creates a new agency, the Office of the Fair Work Building Industry Inspectorate (the Building Inspectorate), to regulate industrial relations in the construction industry.

It repeals construction industry specific laws that provide for higher penalties for breaches of industrial law and a wider range of circumstances in which industrial action attracts penalties. That means the new inspectorate will be enforcing the Fair Work Act in the building construction industry, not the FW Act and the BCII Act.

It allows the Director of the Building Inspectorate to obtain an examination notice under which persons can be compulsorily questioned or required to provide documents relating to an investigation, but only after approval to issue such a notice is obtained from the courts.

It introduces a series of procedural safeguards in relation to the power to issue and rely on these coercive examination notices, for example:

representation by lawyer of choice

review or exercise of powers by Ombudsman

interviews to be conducted by Inspectorate member/s in person, not external lawyers

no power to require undertaking that examination cannot be discussed

entitlement to reasonable expenses of attending examination, including legal expenses.

It creates a new office of ‘Independent Assessor’ which is to determine applications to have the powers ‘switched off’ on particular projects.

Coercive powers to ‘sunset’ after 3 years.

An Advisory Board made up of industry representatives is set up to guide the work of the Inspectorate.

The Inspectorate cannot continue to litigate or commence litigation in respect of matters that have been settled in court between employers, unions and workers.

Abbott vows to re-instate the ABCC

Opposition leader, Tony Abbott has already promised to re-establish the ABCC if elected:

‘.....the Coalition will support the ABCC with every breath in our political bodies. We regard this as one of the great achievements of the Howard era....We will restore the ABCC at the first available opportunity and we will restore it with new vigour......’ Tony Abbott told the Master Builders on 10/2/12.

What happens next?

The Bill will now proceed to the Senate for debate, where the next sitting commences on February 27.

It's not perfect but it's a start.

And this is why Unions fought for the abolishing of the ABCC

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