First British charges for Female Genital Mutilation

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:51 am

The first British charges for female genital mutilation were announced today in a landmark decision by the country’s top prosecutor.

Director of Public Prosecutions Alison Saunders said two people, one a doctor, would appear in court charged with carrying out the crime at London’s Whittington Hospital in November 2012.........................................................................Today’s historic announcement is the first time that criminal action has been taken against an alleged perpetrator since FGM was made illegal in 1985. No action will be taken in four other cases, however, after the legal obstacles to prosecution proved too great.

Any thoughts ?

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:28 am

Bruv;1450553 wrote: Any thoughts ?My recollection of meeting first-generation migrants from central Africa in the 1960s is the preponderance of ritual permanent scarification so many of them displayed at the time. It has disappeared now to such an extent that I can't recall seeing anything like it in years - it would be as surprising now as smallpox scarring, which was also commonplace back then.

Fifty years ago, the National Geographic magazine (if my memory serves) ran page after page displaying variations in tribal scar patterning and techniques from countries such as Ghana. It was a recognized aspect of life in those cultures.

Does this suggest cultural ritual practices can change from one generation to another?

I recall seeing dueling scars on Germans too, before anyone thinks the history of ritual mutilation has nothing to with Europeans.

With specific reference to FGM, I'm amazed the same law is never applied to so-called cosmetic surgery like labiaplasty and "vaginal rejuvenation". What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the... other goose, I suppose.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:23 am

Are you seriously comparing tribal marking with the often forced female genital mutilation?

I realise it is a cultural thing, it is also a religious thing, the practice of circumcision has a medical merit in certain circumstances, what merit is there in this barbaric practice?

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:51 am

I was discussing the ability of cultural practice to change from one generation to another. I thought I'd said.

Describing FGM as a religious practice would, I think, need a bit of evidence thrown in. How are you distinguishing religious practice from cultural practice when a culture predominantly engages in one faith?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:58 am

Týr;1450562 wrote: I was discussing the ability of cultural practice to change from one generation to another. I thought I'd said.

Describing FGM as a religious practice would, I think, need a bit of evidence thrown in. How are you distinguishing religious practice from cultural practice when a culture predominantly engages in one faith?

You tend to answer with a question.

No body doubts cultural practices change, however some are deeply inbedded and transfer with migrating cultures to countries where these practices ought by your argument be dieing a natural death.

OK I shall put the question another way.......should we proscecute to accelerate change in our country?

An Interesting read.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:02 am

Týr;1450555 wrote:

With specific reference to FGM, I'm amazed the same law is never applied to so-called cosmetic surgery like labiaplasty and "vaginal rejuvenation". What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the... other goose, I suppose.

There Is no comparison Tyr simply because anyone undergoing a Labiaplasty or Vaginal cosmetic surgery must be adult. I think It's 18 years old.

With FGM, the women are children as young as 5 years old, even babies, pinned down and the act performed against their free will without anaesthetic.

Many girls are Injured In the process, some even die from Infection. Our hospitals treat victims all the time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 02859.html

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:19 am

Bruv;1450565 wrote: OK I shall put the question another way.......should we proscecute to accelerate change in our country?

Undoubtedly, yes. But we should equally criminalize and prosecute male genital mutilation as well. This guff about oh male circumcision protects against STDs is all very well but, at the risk of being shouted down by knee-jerk members incapable of rational thought, so too does the main method of FGM, surgical closure. It's unfortunate in terms of discussing this issue that the far rarer and far worse FGM, clitoral damage or removal, is invariably referred to by the same FGM name when they are blatantly different procedures.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:30 am

Týr;1450575 wrote: Undoubtedly, yes. But we should equally criminalize and prosecute male genital mutilation as well. This guff about oh male circumcision protects against STDs is all very well but, at the risk of being shouted down by knee-jerk members incapable of rational thought, so too does the main method of FGM, surgical closure. It's unfortunate in terms of discussing this issue that the far rarer and far worse FGM, clitoral damage or removal, is invariably referred to by the same FGM name when they are blatantly different procedures.

You are overlooking, the main reason of FGM.

In circumcision there Is the debate of cleanliness.

In FGM, It Is In the main carried out to deprive the girl of sexual pleasure and desensitise her.

The forms of female genital mutilation | Society | theguardian.com

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:51 pm

Týr;1450575 wrote: Undoubtedly, yes. But we should equally criminalize and prosecute male genital mutilation as well.

I agree. There may well be men here who have endured the process of circumcision and shrug their shoulders at any suggestion of harm done but its child abuse none the less.

I hope this is just the beginning.

I'm just astonished it has taken 30 years for the first prosecution.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:02 pm

Týr;1450575 wrote: Undoubtedly, yes. But we should equally criminalize and prosecute male genital mutilation as well. This guff about oh male circumcision protects against STDs is all very well but, at the risk of being shouted down by knee-jerk members incapable of rational thought, so too does the main method of FGM, surgical closure. It's unfortunate in terms of discussing this issue that the far rarer and far worse FGM, clitoral damage or removal, is invariably referred to by the same FGM name when they are blatantly different procedures.

There is some medical reason for some male circumcisions, there is none whatsoever for any of the several types of FGM.

Any ill effects are negligable in male but life major life changing in females, hardly comparable.

One is like foot binding in Chinese culture a major physical mutilation, and lets say the fashion for tatoos in comparison.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:05 pm

Snowfire;1450587 wrote: I agree. There may well be men here who have endured the process of circumcision and shrug their shoulders at any suggestion of harm done but its child abuse none the less.

I hope this is just the beginning.

I'm just astonished it has taken 30 years for the first prosecution.

Swedish and Danish call for ban on ritual circumcision

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:30 pm

Bruv;1450589 wrote: There is some medical reason for some male circumcisions, there is none whatsoever for any of the several types of FGM.

Any ill effects are negligable in male but life major life changing in females, hardly comparable.

One is like foot binding in Chinese culture a major physical mutilation, and lets say the fashion for tatoos in comparison.

Your right, there is some medical reason for male circumcisions but no basis for arbitrarily cutting a child's genitalia for religious or cultural reasons. While I'm not suggesting in any way a comparison with FGM, its abuse none the less

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:35 am

Warning graphic content

Look at the way the girl Is being held down. Look at the agony on her face. How can that compare to anything else?

Egypt: A 14-Year-old Girl Dies During FGM Procedure | sharia unveiled

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:56 am

I havent watched it. I dont think I can. Its hideously barbaric and shows the subjugation and control of women by men. Why would anyone allow this to happen to their daughter/granddaughter. There's no justification, cultural or otherwise for this abuse.

I read an article the other day that stated that the process is as virulent here in the UK amongst the Somalian community as it is back in Somalia. If memory serves me correctly the statistic is as high as 95% of girls between 6 and 14. Totally unacceptable and needs to be eradicated here now with very stiff sentences.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:58 am

McOscar;1451987 wrote: Warning graphic content

Look at the way the girl Is being held down. Look at the agony on her face. How can that compare to anything else?

Egypt: A 14-Year-old Girl Dies During FGM Procedure | sharia unveiled

Did you notice that the wordpress entry included, at the end, the source for the article? Did you click it?

Did you see the claimed photo in the original article? No? Neither did I.

So does the photo have anything to do with the article, or is it more likely a faked-up bit of codswallop to titillate sensation seekers with.

Your shoddy wordpress entry has "sharia unveiled" in the title, the news source is rather more informative...The practice has been common among both Muslims and minority Christians, said Nehad Abolkomsan, who heads the Egyptian Centre for Women’s Rights.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:30 am

TÃ½r;1451989 wrote: Did you notice that the wordpress entry included, at the end, the source for the article? Did you click it?

Did you see the claimed photo in the original article? No? Neither did I.

So does the photo have anything to do with the article, or is it more likely a faked-up bit of codswallop to titillate sensation seekers with.

Your shoddy wordpress entry has "sharia unveiled" in the title, the news source is rather more informative...The practice has been common among both Muslims and minority Christians, said Nehad Abolkomsan, who heads the Egyptian Centre for Women’s Rights.

As much as Tyr boo hoo's my link, It happens to one of many many on the web far worse than this one. If anyone doubts the nature of the link, then all I can say, is do some more research before you comment because there Is a wealth of evidence on the net.

Perhaps you'll believe The Guardian Left wing rag.

Egypt launches first prosecution for female genital mutilation after girl dies | Society | theguardian.com

Yes, you're right Snowfire.... at least now airports have been warned to be on the lookout for young African girls being escorted to africa In the school holidays from the UK. Also schools now highlight unexpected holidays.

FGM « VVVUK.com

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:39 pm

Watching Channel Four news tonight by co-Incidence, contained a news Item on FGM.

I was pleased to see a police spokesman tell Channel Four ' FGM Is violence toward children which results In deep physcological damage and we will prosecute you'...

Then the Item went on to talk of ' Breast Ironing' and I have to admit, that's a new one on me. Another form of mutilation being practised In the UKl

Campaigners warn of 'breast ironing' in the UK - Channel 4 News

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 42435.html

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:59 am

The Somali cutter sat with her 10-year-old daughter beside her and explained calmly why she will take a razor blade to her this summer. “I am a circumciser, she declared. “This young one I haven’t circumcised yet, but my other daughters are circumcised. I will circumcise her in the school holidays in June or July.......

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:34 am

McOscar;1451994 wrote: As much as Tyr boo hoo's my link, It happens to one of many many on the web far worse than this one. If anyone doubts the nature of the link, then all I can say, is do some more research before you comment because there Is a wealth of evidence on the net.

I didn't boo-hoo your link, I quoted from the referenced article with approval if you look. The referenced article was convincingly factual. What I boo-hoo'd, as you'd have known if you weren't in one of your Odie phases, was your gushing "Look at the way the girl Is being held down. Look at the agony on her face. How can that compare to anything else?" over a photo which wasn't part of the article, which was plainly nothing to do with the article, which was added by a propagandist anti-Muslim website and which frankly stank of fraudulent intent and origin.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:34 am

Bruv;1452024 wrote: The Somali cutter sat with her 10-year-old daughter beside her and explained calmly why she will take a razor blade to her this summer. “I am a circumciser, she declared. “This young one I haven’t circumcised yet, but my other daughters are circumcised. I will circumcise her in the school holidays in June or July.......

On the Channel 4 news Item I saw last night, there was an African lady campaigner speaking on behalf of victims In the UK and although she agreed that there must be prosecutions by police she also talked about the culture. She was very good at explaining that to African women even British born African women, It Is the culture that Is at fault. She said culture Is all In the mind and It Is the culture that must also be addressed and until they can do that, It will continue. I think she was spot on.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:38 am

Týr;1452025 wrote: I didn't boo-hoo your link, I quoted from the referenced article with approval if you look. The referenced article was convincingly factual. What I boo-hoo'd, as you'd have known if you weren't in one of your Odie phases, was your gushing "Look at the way the girl Is being held down. Look at the agony on her face. How can that compare to anything else?" over a photo which wasn't part of the article, which was plainly nothing to do with the article, which was added by a propagandist anti-Muslim website and which frankly stank of fraudulent intent and origin.

If you visit any of the bona fide sites on FGM, you will see the same If not very similar Images over and over again. Regardless of wether It Is a stock photograph not pertaining to that particular moment In time, It and others are used to give the reader an Idea of what Is Involved. That's all. I thought most people would realise that.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:52 am

McOscar;1452027 wrote: If you visit any of the bona fide sites on FGM, you will see the same If not very similar Images over and over again.
Rubbish. Show me a bona fide site on FGM displaying that same image.

It's actually of a three year old *boy*, you twerp. It's a simple enough factoid to check before going out on a limb.

Is that sufficiently good provenance for you?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:00 am

Týr;1452029 wrote: Rubbish. Show me a bona fide site on FGM displaying that same image.

It's actually of a three year old *boy*, you twerp. It's a simple enough factoid to check before going out on a limb.

Leith Fuad Mosa age 3 screams in pain as he held down and circumcised... News Photo 74949650 | Getty Images

Is that sufficiently good provenance for you? Why do I need to prove anything to someone who can't understand the basic logic behind a stock photograph ? Wether It's that picture or another, It's plain to all that the Image portrayed Is there to give a reader the Image of the barbarity of the practice.

What I won't do either, Is trash this thread Indulging In an attempt to take It off tangent and away from the topic It was designed for, so can we keep to subject please?

And If your going to call me names, then stand by It not delete It as you have done.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:00 am

McOscar;1452026 wrote: She said culture Is all In the mind and It Is the culture that must also be addressed and until they can do that, It will continue. I think she was spot on.

Saw it and that is why passing Laws about such things is almost pointless.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:03 am

Bruv;1452032 wrote: Saw it and that is why passing Laws about such things is almost pointless. She talked far more sense than most of our politicians and I liked what she said about this being a community Issue and changing the concept of the culture within those communities.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:06 am

McOscar;1452031 wrote: Why do I need to prove anything to someone who can't understand the basic logic behind a stock photograph ? Wether It's that picture or another, It's plain to all that the Image portrayed Is there to give a reader the Image of the barbarity of the practice.
It's an "Image of the barbarity of the practice"? The practice of FGM? On a boy?? Or are you finally climbing round to accepting that all circumcision is a barbarity, at last.

"Look at the way the girl Is being held down"? It's a boy.

"Look at the agony on her face"? It's a boy.

Circumcision is a culturally-conditioned offence against human decency.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:21 pm

McOscar;1452033 wrote: She talked far more sense than most of our politicians and I liked what she said about this being a community Issue and changing the concept of the culture within those communities.

I think this goes far beyond being a community issue. While I agree there is much work to do with regards to it being a cultural problem, this is a serious abuse of children and the sentencing should reflect that. It just might make a few cultural heads sit up and take notice. Lets not turn a blind eye because culturally some people might not understand or agree

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:55 pm

Snowfire;1452039 wrote: I think this goes far beyond being a community issue. While I agree there is much work to do with regards to it being a cultural problem, this is a serious abuse of children and the sentencing should reflect that. It just might make a few cultural heads sit up and take notice. Lets not turn a blind eye because culturally some people might not understand or agree

I agree but going back to what this African lady said last night, was that the culture Is so deep rooted over so many centuries that there Is no quick fix. So I am In favour of harsh sentencing. You're right, It Is serious violent abuse of children. If an English woman did similar to her children, she'd get 10 years so what must not happen and that of which has happened In the past on other cultures, Is that our government bows down for fear of offence to an ethnic minority. It must be seen for exactly what It is and that Is, serious violence and mutilation of children. We can't bow down to differences of culture. When we do that, It's to turn a blind eye and until It becomes acceptable.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:05 pm

McOscar;1452040 wrote: I agree but going back to what this African lady said last night, was that the culture Is so deep rooted over so many centuries that there Is no quick fix.
And why would anyone think that's true, given that (I quote my earlier post):My recollection of meeting first-generation migrants from central Africa in the 1960s is the preponderance of ritual permanent scarification so many of them displayed at the time. It has disappeared now to such an extent that I can't recall seeing anything like it in yearsThat was culturally "deep rooted over so many centuries" too. At least 300 years, I'm not sure there's evidence either way before that.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:58 pm

Týr;1452043 wrote: And why would anyone think that's true, given that (I quote my earlier post):. If you believe she's lying, then go and ask her.

Her name Is Dr Sian Morgan. She's a a community paediatrician in Lewisham.... and I suspect, thoroughly more knowlegeable on the subject than someone who's just met some first generation migrants from Africa during the 60's. ( As we all have ).

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:03 pm

McOscar;1452044 wrote: If you believe she's lying, then go and ask her.

Her name Is Dr Sian Morgan. She's a a community paediatrician in Lewisham.... and I suspect, thoroughly more knowlegeable on the subject than someone who's just met some first generation migrants from Africa during the 60's. ( As we all have ).

Do you see people of African descent out and about?

Have you seen much ritual permanent scarification among people of African descent recently?

Do you doubt it was a common sight among people of African descent back in the 60s?

I'll ask again - why should we think FGM is more entrenched in African society than ritual permanent scarification was fifty years ago. It's a fair question.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:12 pm

I do have a possible answer to the puzzle, if you want it. Perhaps it depends on the meaning of "quick", in quick fix.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:31 pm

Týr;1452045 wrote: Do you see people of African descent out and about?

Have you seen much ritual permanent scarification among people of African descent recently?

Do you doubt it was a common sight among people of African descent back in the 60s?

I'll ask again - why should we think FGM is more entrenched in African society than ritual permanent scarification was fifty years ago. It's a fair question.

Permanent Scarification In African communities In the UK Is not a problem.

Any Image of the Scarification shows teenage or adult men and women. They are not 5 year old children being forcibly held down and mutilated against their will.

Scarification In some African races Is body art and decoration, adornment and pertaining to their tribe where the participant Is willing. It's In a loose way akin to tattoo's and facial piercings. It Is however, nowhere near forced removal of a childs anatomy to deprive the girl of sexual sensitivity.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:34 pm

@Tyr (with an accent) are you seriously comparing like for like the religious and cultural practice of forced FGM on young children, and the cultural and religious practice of scarification for body adornment mostly with the approval of the participant ?

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:38 pm

McOscar;1452047 wrote: They are not 5 year old children being forcibly held down and mutilated against their will
Neither was the 14 year old Egyptian girl you started off with, though the 3 year old boy over whose image you emoted so fiercely undoubtedly was. Do, please, go back to the photo. Look at the way the 3 year old boy is being held down. Look at the agony on his face. How can that compare to anything else?

If the law against genital mutilation is amended so that the same degree of mutilation in both boys and girls is equally punishable, I'll be quite happy with the result. Maybe foreskins and clitoral hoods can both be whipped off cleanly with impunity, eh? Or, if you really really want to leave clitoral hoods alone, stop cutting off bloody foreskins too. What you absolutely cannot do is discriminate between mutilated children on the basis of their gender.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:43 pm

Bruv;1452048 wrote: @Tyr (with an accent) are you seriously comparing like for like the religious and cultural practice of forced FGM on young children, and the cultural and religious practice of scarification for body adornment mostly with the approval of the participant ?

Not even slightly. I'm pointing out that over a period of fifty years, a ritual that was culturally just as "deep rooted over so many centuries" as FGM has been practically eliminated, and that it's in the same parts of the world in both instances.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:52 pm

Týr;1452050 wrote: Not even slightly. I'm pointing out that over a period of fifty years, a ritual that was culturally just as "deep rooted over so many centuries" as FGM has been practically eliminated, and that it's in the same parts of the world in both instances.

You're wrong.

Permanent Scarification Is not a problem In the UK... simply because any first wave Immigrants of Tribal African descent have no reason to adorn the body pertaining to a tribe that Is not In the country of which they are living and descended Into.

FGM Is not carried out to adorn the body but to deprive women of any sensitivity or sexual feelings. The difference which I would have thought was blindingly obvious to anyone, Is that one Is for decoration and the other to remove sexual organs to deprive a woman of sexual enjoyment. The reason It Is a problem In the UK Is because the practice went underground and why It took authorities so long to break silence of UK African communities.

Scarification Is not just related to African tribes. Hell's Angels do It. Gangs In the USA do It pertaining to their gangs.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:01 pm

McOscar;1452051 wrote: The difference which I would have thought was blindingly obvious to anyone, Is that one Is for decoration and the other to remove sexual organs to deprive a woman of sexual enjoyment. The reason It Is a problem In the UK Is because the practice went underground and why It took authorities so long to break silence of UK African communities.

Over a period of fifty years, a ritual that was culturally just as "deep rooted over so many centuries" as FGM has been practically eliminated, in the same parts of the world in both instances. You're shifting your ground from "deep rooted over so many centuries" - they were your words - to "have no reason to adorn the body pertaining to a tribe that Is not In the country of which they are living and descended Into". The traditional oscar side-shuffle. The ritual scarring stopped in Africa too, not just in the UK.

Have you been back and looked at your photo of that 3 year old Iraqi boy yet? Has the fact that he's a 3 year old boy lessened your distress that he's being held down? Has the fact that he's a 3 year old boy lessened your interpretation of agony on his face? Have you decided that actually, now he's a 3 year old boy, what he's undergoing can be compared to other things after all?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:54 am

Týr;1452052 wrote: Over a period of fifty years, a ritual that was culturally just as "deep rooted over so many centuries" as FGM has been practically eliminated, in the same parts of the world in both instances. You're shifting your ground from "deep rooted over so many centuries" - they were your words - to "have no reason to adorn the body pertaining to a tribe that Is not In the country of which they are living and descended Into". The traditional oscar side-shuffle. The ritual scarring stopped in Africa too, not just in the UK.

Has It been practically eliminated ? Where's your evidence of that ?

Why ? Because we don't see them walking around the UK ?

The majority of first wave migrants to the UK hailed from the Gambia.

Tribes that use Scarification Include the Karo tribe from Ethiopia, the Nuba tribe from the Sudan, the Kaleri tribe, the Boni tribe from Burkino Faso etc etc.... Now, you show me stats of how many of these tribes migrated to the UK because It's non-existent.

'Scarring may be an ancient art, but it is certainly not one that is fading away. Although scarification may be practiced slightly less than it used to be on the African continent, many Europeans and North and South Americans have adopted the practice.'

Reasons for scarification today are much the same as they have always been:

Africa Scarification History

So, No, Scarification has not died out as you claim.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:20 am

Týr;1452052 wrote: . You're shifting your ground from "deep rooted over so many centuries" - they were your words - to "have no reason to adorn the body pertaining to a tribe that Is not In the country of which they are living and descended Into". The traditional oscar side-shuffle. The ritual scarring stopped in Africa too, not just in the UK.

No they were not.

Snowfire and myself were talking about what Dr Sian Morgan had said on the news Item. Go back and check my post and you'll find what I said was:

Posted by McOscar

but going back to what this African lady said last night, was that the culture Is so deep rooted over so many centuries that there Is no quick fix.

I was quoting what the Dr had said so no, they were not my words.

It Is you trying to sideswipe here to take the thread off. Instead of concentrating on the subject, you are picking on my words.

As I said prior, If you believe Dr Sian Morgan, an African child Doctor Is lying, then go and tell her. I have a feeling you'd be laughed out of the building.

I'm sorry Tyr but It just appears you are rather uneducated In this subject and should do a little more research.

This article Is rather accurate and not your right wing rag for you to dismiss.

FGM is thought to affect up to 140 million women and girls, and is recognised as a violation of human rights.

"It reflects deep-rooted inequality between the sexes, and constitutes an extreme form of discrimination against women," says the WHO. "It is nearly always carried out on minors and is a violation of the rights of children. The practice also violates a person's rights to health, security and physical integrity, the right to be free from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, and the right to life when the procedure results in death."

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... ere-happen

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat May 10, 2014 10:18 am

Well done to British Police

Woman arrested at Heathrow for conspiring to commit FGM - Crime - UK - The Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 47501.html

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:03 am

Oscar Namechange;1452047 wrote: Any Image of the Scarification shows teenage or adult men and women. They are not 5 year old children being forcibly held down and mutilated against their will.
I'll add a link to the thread, given the extent of disagreement over the underlying facts about ritual scarification in Africa.

I maintained that it is on the wane compared with fifty years ago and before, which oscar maintained was untrue. The bit about "they are not 5 year old children being forcibly held down and mutilated against their will" is addressed too.

But scarring is becoming less popular. An increasing number of families take part in just the first stage of the ceremony, stopping before the incisions are made. It's the same in other parts of the country where each ethnic group has its own distinct scarring patterns.

[...] While Genevieve Boko's daughter Marina (below) was six months old when she received the marks - babies in some areas of Benin undergo the process a week after they are born.

[...] Others have different reasons for deciding not to pass the scars on to younger generations. Sinkeni Ntcha stopped after his first three children "because of Aids," he says. "Blades have to be changed each time but the chiefs refused." For him, a member of the Otomari people, the marks are "useless". Traditional culture can be expressed in other ways, he says, through language, dances, initiation ceremonies and architecture.

BBC News - Why some people want facial scars

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:17 am

The problem you seemed to have was that you thought because you didn't see descendants of tribal Immigrants wandering around downtown Bristol, Scarification had died out.

Posted by Tyr

Do you see people of African descent out and about?

Have you seen much ritual permanent scarification among people of African descent recently?

Do you doubt it was a common sight among people of African descent back in the 60s?

So, you show me the stats for how many tribal Immigrants from Ethiopia migrated her In the 60's.

We don't see It In England not because It has died out but because there were zero Immigrants from remote tribal communities. Unlike the wave of Immigrants we saw from Ghana that brought the practice of FGM with them.

Some sources say It's dying out, some say different. Yes, this one Is the Daily Mail but the photographs speak.

Ethiopian and Sudanese tribes show off their intricate raised patterns created using THORNS | Mail Online

Scarification: Ancient Body Art Leaving New Marks

Regardless, your belief that FGM Is no different to scarification Is outrageous. One Is to adorn the body, the other to deny a woman of sexual feeling. If you can't see the difference, there Is no hope In arguing with you.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:25 am

Oscar Namechange;1457837 wrote: Regardless, your belief that FGM Is no different to scarification Is outrageous. One Is to adorn the body, the other to deny a woman of sexual feeling. If you can't see the difference, there Is no hope In arguing with you.
Garbage thoughts from a garbage mind, madam. Nowhere have I said "scarification had died out" or that it's my "belief that FGM Is no different to scarification". Neither are all forms of FGM "to deny a woman of sexual feeling" - some forms don't. Unlike, I might add, all forms of male circumcision to some extent.

You're constantly full of he said this he said that he said the other and you invariably lie through your teeth, I haven't said anything of the sort. You constantly misrepresent my position, you knowingly misrepresent my position, you have neither reason nor leave to behave in such an underhand manner. The best name I have for what you do is blight. Desist, or, better yet, depart.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:40 am

Swerve and back tracking.

Posted by Tyr

I maintained that it is on the wane compared with fifty years ago and before

Posted by Tyr

Have you seen much ritual permanent scarification among people of African descent recently

Have you been to Lewisham yet to call the African Doctor a liar?

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:58 am

Oscar Namechange;1457839 wrote: Swerve and back tracking.

Posted by Tyr

I maintained that it is on the wane compared with fifty years ago and before

Posted by Tyr

Have you seen much ritual permanent scarification among people of African descent recently

Have you been to Lewisham yet to call the African Doctor a liar?

How in God's name do you equate "on the wane compared with fifty years ago and before" with "scarification had died out"? Do you genuinely have so little grasp of the language that you see those phrases as equivalent?

As for FGM, you constantly equate it to the extreme instance of clitoral excision (which is indeed "to deny a woman of sexual feeling"), but the term is far broader. It also includes cutting, to a greater or lesser extent, the clitoral hood, which I equate directly to male circumcision and which has an equivalent effect to male circumcision in terms of desensitizing stimulation. FGM also, rarely, consisted of sewing as a preventative to premarital penetrative intercourse which perhaps - and I only say perhaps - once had a place in some African settings as a protective measure, but nobody could pretend it was ever a religious as opposed to a cultural women's reaction to male dominance and a lack of respectable laws or their enforcement. In my opinion all forms of FGM should be outlawed worldwide, as should all male circumcision, and both for the same reason.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:10 am

Týr;1457840 wrote: In my opinion all forms of FGM should be outlawed worldwide, as should all male circumcision, and both for the same reason.

Thats it............you both agree..........now kiss and make up.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:31 am

Bruv;1457841 wrote: Thats it............you both agree..........now kiss and make up.

I remember when this site encouraged members to find the common ground and expand it as far as possible. It is a policy too long abandoned, since any such attempt has been repetitively thwarted by idiots whose sole sense of self-importance comes from their bile-laden contumely and public spite. Or, as Drayton so affectingly describes what Forumgarden has endured these last few years,

Where the goodly herds of high-palmed harts did gaze

Upon the passer-by, there now doth only graze

The gall'd-back carrion jade, and hurtful swine do spoil

Once to the Sylvan powers our consecrated soil.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:49 am

C-o-n-t-u-m-e-l-y........I'm going borrow that for another time......if I may.

I am just away to see if I can look up.....high-palmed harts......might come in handy.

(1753........Cambrian fhires....farth'ft furvey????)

No....... I shall leave that one

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:53 am

Týr;1457843 wrote: I remember when this site encouraged members to find the common ground and expand it as far as possible. It is a policy too long abandoned, since any such attempt has been repetitively thwarted by idiots whose sole sense of self-importance comes from their bile-laden contumely and public spite. Or, as Drayton so affectingly describes what Forumgarden has endured these last few years,

Where the goodly herds of high-palmed harts did gaze

Upon the passer-by, there now doth only graze

The gall'd-back carrion jade, and hurtful swine do spoil

Once to the Sylvan powers our consecrated soil. If you really want new members to see how FG once was, there Is a thread by JJ about US foreign policy In Iraq that could exercise the ' old ways' of FG.

However, this thread Is about Female Genital Mutilation and out of respect to the poster to the thread, I will stick to that subject. You, are taking the thread off on a tangent for a personal agenda. Show some respect here.