So I have an interesting situation going on right now. Years back, a niece of mine fell in with a bad crowd. One of them, a particularly evil gangster named "Big Happy" shot her in the throat in cold blood at a party. She was 15. the police had a volumes-thick record on this man, but without eye-witness testimony, (and two of the eye-witnesses left the country), they could do nothing.
Because he was known to be a ruthless killer, no one would talk and he was never charged, although everyone in the community knew who had done it. (Many of my students actually came to me and told me they knew it was him as well.)
A few months later, the same gangster shot another 16-year-old student of mine as we was sitting on his porch. This one was well-liked by many. But again, no evidence was found and no one was brave enough to testify against him and he walked away without consequence. He was the known leader of the largest and most vicious gang in our town, the SouthSide Locos. Murders occurred at his home regularly for three years.
A couple of years after that, after decades of violence and chaos, "Big Happy" got religion. He married a nice girl, had a daughter, and got a middle class job. By all indications he was "reformed" completely.
A year ago, as he was sitting in a parking lot, two of the friends of the murdered boy crept up to the car and unloaded two full magazines into his head in front of his daughter and wife as vengeance for their murdered friend. Their trial is coming up this month, and they aren't any more savory than he was.
There was a great hue and cry in the papers, of course, about what a "great man" he was and how he had "turned his life around." To complicate matters, his mother worked for the school system and was known to be a very nice woman.
So here's my dilemma: Should I be sad that the son of a colleague who had rehabilitated himself ended badly, or happy that the killer of my niece met justice?:-3
Forgiveness or Justice?
Forgiveness or Justice?
I would be troubled by a shite justice system.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Forgiveness or Justice?
Saint_;1477564 wrote: So I have an interesting situation going on right now. Years back, a niece of mine fell in with a bad crowd. One of them, a particularly evil gangster named "Big Happy" shot her in the throat in cold blood at a party. She was 15. the police had a volumes-thick record on this man, but without eye-witness testimony, (and two of the eye-witnesses left the country), they could do nothing.
Because he was known to be a ruthless killer, no one would talk and he was never charged, although everyone in the community knew who had done it. (Many of my students actually came to me and told me they knew it was him as well.)
A few months later, the same gangster shot another 16-year-old student of mine as we was sitting on his porch. This one was well-liked by many. But again, no evidence was found and no one was brave enough to testify against him and he walked away without consequence. He was the known leader of the largest and most vicious gang in our town, the SouthSide Locos. Murders occurred at his home regularly for three years.
A couple of years after that, after decades of violence and chaos, "Big Happy" got religion. He married a nice girl, had a daughter, and got a middle class job. By all indications he was "reformed" completely.
A year ago, as he was sitting in a parking lot, two of the friends of the murdered boy crept up to the car and unloaded two full magazines into his head in front of his daughter and wife as vengeance for their murdered friend. Their trial is coming up this month, and they aren't any more savory than he was.
There was a great hue and cry in the papers, of course, about what a "great man" he was and how he had "turned his life around." To complicate matters, his mother worked for the school system and was known to be a very nice woman.
So here's my dilemma: Should I be sad that the son of a colleague who had rehabilitated himself ended badly, or happy that the killer of my niece met justice?:-3
He didn't meet justice, he was murdered.
The injustice is that he got away and could not be legally executed.
I could give a rat's azz he reformed.
He caused a lot of misery and terror. He never made restitution, as if one could for murder. We suppose to just let him go to a moral bankruptcy court?
Because he was known to be a ruthless killer, no one would talk and he was never charged, although everyone in the community knew who had done it. (Many of my students actually came to me and told me they knew it was him as well.)
A few months later, the same gangster shot another 16-year-old student of mine as we was sitting on his porch. This one was well-liked by many. But again, no evidence was found and no one was brave enough to testify against him and he walked away without consequence. He was the known leader of the largest and most vicious gang in our town, the SouthSide Locos. Murders occurred at his home regularly for three years.
A couple of years after that, after decades of violence and chaos, "Big Happy" got religion. He married a nice girl, had a daughter, and got a middle class job. By all indications he was "reformed" completely.
A year ago, as he was sitting in a parking lot, two of the friends of the murdered boy crept up to the car and unloaded two full magazines into his head in front of his daughter and wife as vengeance for their murdered friend. Their trial is coming up this month, and they aren't any more savory than he was.
There was a great hue and cry in the papers, of course, about what a "great man" he was and how he had "turned his life around." To complicate matters, his mother worked for the school system and was known to be a very nice woman.
So here's my dilemma: Should I be sad that the son of a colleague who had rehabilitated himself ended badly, or happy that the killer of my niece met justice?:-3
He didn't meet justice, he was murdered.
The injustice is that he got away and could not be legally executed.
I could give a rat's azz he reformed.
He caused a lot of misery and terror. He never made restitution, as if one could for murder. We suppose to just let him go to a moral bankruptcy court?
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Forgiveness or Justice?
Saint_;1477564 wrote: So I have an interesting situation going on right now. Years back, a niece of mine fell in with a bad crowd. One of them, a particularly evil gangster named "Big Happy" shot her in the throat in cold blood at a party. She was 15. the police had a volumes-thick record on this man, but without eye-witness testimony, (and two of the eye-witnesses left the country), they could do nothing.
Because he was known to be a ruthless killer, no one would talk and he was never charged, although everyone in the community knew who had done it. (Many of my students actually came to me and told me they knew it was him as well.)
A few months later, the same gangster shot another 16-year-old student of mine as we was sitting on his porch. This one was well-liked by many. But again, no evidence was found and no one was brave enough to testify against him and he walked away without consequence. He was the known leader of the largest and most vicious gang in our town, the SouthSide Locos. Murders occurred at his home regularly for three years.
A couple of years after that, after decades of violence and chaos, "Big Happy" got religion. He married a nice girl, had a daughter, and got a middle class job. By all indications he was "reformed" completely.
A year ago, as he was sitting in a parking lot, two of the friends of the murdered boy crept up to the car and unloaded two full magazines into his head in front of his daughter and wife as vengeance for their murdered friend. Their trial is coming up this month, and they aren't any more savory than he was.
There was a great hue and cry in the papers, of course, about what a "great man" he was and how he had "turned his life around." To complicate matters, his mother worked for the school system and was known to be a very nice woman.
So here's my dilemma: Should I be sad that the son of a colleague who had rehabilitated himself ended badly, or happy that the killer of my niece met justice?:-3
So, it's possible that he may have redeemed himself for some of his ways, but he set in motion the events that led to his demise. Nothing to be glad or sad for. That's Karma. Just be happy that he is no longer killing young people.
Because he was known to be a ruthless killer, no one would talk and he was never charged, although everyone in the community knew who had done it. (Many of my students actually came to me and told me they knew it was him as well.)
A few months later, the same gangster shot another 16-year-old student of mine as we was sitting on his porch. This one was well-liked by many. But again, no evidence was found and no one was brave enough to testify against him and he walked away without consequence. He was the known leader of the largest and most vicious gang in our town, the SouthSide Locos. Murders occurred at his home regularly for three years.
A couple of years after that, after decades of violence and chaos, "Big Happy" got religion. He married a nice girl, had a daughter, and got a middle class job. By all indications he was "reformed" completely.
A year ago, as he was sitting in a parking lot, two of the friends of the murdered boy crept up to the car and unloaded two full magazines into his head in front of his daughter and wife as vengeance for their murdered friend. Their trial is coming up this month, and they aren't any more savory than he was.
There was a great hue and cry in the papers, of course, about what a "great man" he was and how he had "turned his life around." To complicate matters, his mother worked for the school system and was known to be a very nice woman.
So here's my dilemma: Should I be sad that the son of a colleague who had rehabilitated himself ended badly, or happy that the killer of my niece met justice?:-3
So, it's possible that he may have redeemed himself for some of his ways, but he set in motion the events that led to his demise. Nothing to be glad or sad for. That's Karma. Just be happy that he is no longer killing young people.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Forgiveness or Justice?
So, if some serial killer suddenly regrets his actions after a lifetime of killing, that's ok? Forgive him. I wonder how the families of all those he killed might think of that.
The question here is nothing to do with forgiveness or justice. It's whether it's murder or street justice. The American legal system had clearly failed because of the loopholes it imposes on itself regarding witnesses. From what I gather, there's no shortage of evidence, just a lack of witnesses to attest to it - hence the reason for the Witness Protection Programme, which if the cases didn't just hang on witness testimony wouldn't be necessary. The friends & families knew that the legal system would fail them so the only way to get justice would be to take the law into their own hands. Legal? No. Justifiable? Yes.
The question here is nothing to do with forgiveness or justice. It's whether it's murder or street justice. The American legal system had clearly failed because of the loopholes it imposes on itself regarding witnesses. From what I gather, there's no shortage of evidence, just a lack of witnesses to attest to it - hence the reason for the Witness Protection Programme, which if the cases didn't just hang on witness testimony wouldn't be necessary. The friends & families knew that the legal system would fail them so the only way to get justice would be to take the law into their own hands. Legal? No. Justifiable? Yes.
Forgiveness or Justice?
And forgiveness isn't about the person who did wrong. Forgiveness is about the forgiver.
You want to carry around the hatred for someone all your life? That gets pretty tiring, after a while.
You forgive someone so that you don't have to carry that crap around any longer. That has nothing to do with whether they deserve it, or whether they have done something to redeem themselves, or not. And that doesn't mean you let them come around and screw up your life, again.
You want to carry around the hatred for someone all your life? That gets pretty tiring, after a while.
You forgive someone so that you don't have to carry that crap around any longer. That has nothing to do with whether they deserve it, or whether they have done something to redeem themselves, or not. And that doesn't mean you let them come around and screw up your life, again.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Forgiveness or Justice?
So, if Hitler had found Religion & seen the error of his ways, then Halleluiah!! The world should forgive him.
Forgiveness or Justice?
FourPart;1477582 wrote: So, if Hitler had found Religion & seen the error of his ways, then Halleluiah!! The world should forgive him.
Like I said. Got nothing to do with the perpetrator.
Meditations on the concept from various philosophical perspectives:
Buddhism: Forgiveness practice can help you find meaning in life's worst events and free you of the inner violence of your own rage
Buddhism - forgiving the unforgivable
Christianity: And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. - Mark 11:25
NIV Bible Mark Chap 11
Atheism: Consider this. If someone has wronged you, and doesn’t care about your feelings at all, how does your vengefulness, grief, or forgiveness affect them in any way? The answer, of course, is that it doesn’t. Therefore, the emotional effect your forgiveness can have on another’s life will vary from small to none, at best (unless you’re the judge, of course, but that’s not really the same thing).
Forgiveness has almost nothing to do with the forgiven, and everything to do with the forgiver. Holding on to your grudge, grief, vengefulness, or any other kind of pain does you no good, and in fact severely impacts your quality of life. Forgiving is letting go of those negative emotions and moving on with a mind that is free of the pain and distraction they cause.
Releasing that baggage can’t help but improve your relations with everyone in your life, your “wronger included.
Forgiveness - Ask the atheists
Like I said. Got nothing to do with the perpetrator.
Meditations on the concept from various philosophical perspectives:
Buddhism: Forgiveness practice can help you find meaning in life's worst events and free you of the inner violence of your own rage
Buddhism - forgiving the unforgivable
Christianity: And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. - Mark 11:25
NIV Bible Mark Chap 11
Atheism: Consider this. If someone has wronged you, and doesn’t care about your feelings at all, how does your vengefulness, grief, or forgiveness affect them in any way? The answer, of course, is that it doesn’t. Therefore, the emotional effect your forgiveness can have on another’s life will vary from small to none, at best (unless you’re the judge, of course, but that’s not really the same thing).
Forgiveness has almost nothing to do with the forgiven, and everything to do with the forgiver. Holding on to your grudge, grief, vengefulness, or any other kind of pain does you no good, and in fact severely impacts your quality of life. Forgiving is letting go of those negative emotions and moving on with a mind that is free of the pain and distraction they cause.
Releasing that baggage can’t help but improve your relations with everyone in your life, your “wronger included.
Forgiveness - Ask the atheists
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Forgiveness or Justice?
As usual, the Bible contradicts itself on these sort of matter, though, so it can't really be taken as the guiding rule. While it speaks of Forgiveness, it also teaches an Eye For An Eye, and that Those Who Live By The Sword Shall Die By The Sword. As usual, though, followers of the Bible will Cherry-Pick the best parts to suit their case at the time. It comes in very useful to have a rule book that makes use of both arguments for & against.
Forgiveness or Justice?
I agree completely with LarsMarc's first response. But I'm Buddhist, and that's just kind of how we roll.
Forgiveness or Justice?
FourPart;1477593 wrote: As usual, the Bible contradicts itself on these sort of matter, though, so it can't really be taken as the guiding rule. While it speaks of Forgiveness, it also teaches an Eye For An Eye, and that Those Who Live By The Sword Shall Die By The Sword. As usual, though, followers of the Bible will Cherry-Pick the best parts to suit their case at the time. It comes in very useful to have a rule book that makes use of both arguments for & against.
The only place in the Bible where the phrase "eye for an eye" exists is in Matthew 5, where Jesus said:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
And What was said about the sword has nothing to do with vengeance or forgiveness.
Matthew 26:52 is after Jesus was captured, and
51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place, Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
The contradictions in the Bible are mostly between the old and New Testaments, where the first is from Bronze Age warriors and the second is from a people trying to make sense of life during the Roman occupation.
The only place in the Bible where the phrase "eye for an eye" exists is in Matthew 5, where Jesus said:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
And What was said about the sword has nothing to do with vengeance or forgiveness.
Matthew 26:52 is after Jesus was captured, and
51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place, Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
The contradictions in the Bible are mostly between the old and New Testaments, where the first is from Bronze Age warriors and the second is from a people trying to make sense of life during the Roman occupation.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Forgiveness or Justice?
Saint_;1477564 wrote: ..... here's my dilemma: Should I be sad that the son of a colleague who had rehabilitated himself ended badly, or happy that the killer of my niece met justice?:-3
Pin your hopes on “two of the friends of the murdered boy getting long prisons sentences and enjoy the fact that your community will have 3 less pistoleros. Your job and responsibility starts and ends in the classroom. You can fret over the lives lost, lives gone awry, and the orphans of Bangladesh as much as you want, but let the police and judge now take their responsibility.
Pin your hopes on “two of the friends of the murdered boy getting long prisons sentences and enjoy the fact that your community will have 3 less pistoleros. Your job and responsibility starts and ends in the classroom. You can fret over the lives lost, lives gone awry, and the orphans of Bangladesh as much as you want, but let the police and judge now take their responsibility.
Forgiveness or Justice?
The phrase that immediately comes to mind is "My Dad's Bigger Than Your Dad!".
Forgiveness or Justice?
To answer your original question, neither.
Don't give it another thought.
Don't give it another thought.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
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AnneBoleyn
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Forgiveness or Justice?
"A few months later, the same gangster shot another 16-year-old student of mine as we was sitting on his porch."
Saint_!!! You narrowly escaped the same fate! You must have been in shock! And your niece! I'm so very sorry you had to have these monstrous experiences.
This man created his own death by his past actions. A true case of "what goes around comes around", a saying I dislike, but it fits.
Saint_!!! You narrowly escaped the same fate! You must have been in shock! And your niece! I'm so very sorry you had to have these monstrous experiences.
This man created his own death by his past actions. A true case of "what goes around comes around", a saying I dislike, but it fits.
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Patsy Warnick
- Posts: 4567
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:53 am
Forgiveness or Justice?
It's Karma
Patsy
Patsy
Forgiveness or Justice?
LarsMac;1477613 wrote: The only place in the Bible where the phrase "eye for an eye" exists is in Matthew 5, where Jesus said:
And What was said about the sword has nothing to do with vengeance or forgiveness.
Matthew 26:52 is after Jesus was captured, and
Your Bible
9And a man who inflicts an injury upon his fellow man just as he did, so shall be done to him [namely,] יטוְ×Ö´×™×©× ×›Ö¼Ö´×™ יִתֵּן ×ž×•Ö¼× ×‘Ö¼Ö·×¢Ö²×žÖ´×™×ª×•Ö¹ ×›Ö¼Ö·×ֲש×ֶר עָשָׂה כֵּן יֵעָשֶׂה לּוֹ:
20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Just as he inflicted an injury upon a person, so shall it be inflicted upon him.
Leviticus - Chapter 24
And What was said about the sword has nothing to do with vengeance or forgiveness.
Matthew 26:52 is after Jesus was captured, and
Your Bible
9And a man who inflicts an injury upon his fellow man just as he did, so shall be done to him [namely,] יטוְ×Ö´×™×©× ×›Ö¼Ö´×™ יִתֵּן ×ž×•Ö¼× ×‘Ö¼Ö·×¢Ö²×žÖ´×™×ª×•Ö¹ ×›Ö¼Ö·×ֲש×ֶר עָשָׂה כֵּן יֵעָשֶׂה לּוֹ:
20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Just as he inflicted an injury upon a person, so shall it be inflicted upon him.
Leviticus - Chapter 24
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Forgiveness or Justice?
tude dog;1477789 wrote: [QUOTE=LarsMac;1477613]The only place in the Bible where the phrase "eye for an eye" exists is in Matthew 5, where Jesus said:
And What was said about the sword has nothing to do with vengeance or forgiveness.
Matthew 26:52 is after Jesus was captured, and
Your Bible
9And a man who inflicts an injury upon his fellow man just as he did, so shall be done to him [namely,] יטוְ×Ö´×™×©× ×›Ö¼Ö´×™ יִתֵּן ×ž×•Ö¼× ×‘Ö¼Ö·×¢Ö²×žÖ´×™×ª×•Ö¹ ×›Ö¼Ö·×ֲש×ֶר עָשָׂה כֵּן יֵעָשֶׂה לּוֹ:
20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Just as he inflicted an injury upon a person, so shall it be inflicted upon him.
Leviticus - Chapter 24
I don't see a sword mentioned once in that chapter.
And What was said about the sword has nothing to do with vengeance or forgiveness.
Matthew 26:52 is after Jesus was captured, and
Your Bible
9And a man who inflicts an injury upon his fellow man just as he did, so shall be done to him [namely,] יטוְ×Ö´×™×©× ×›Ö¼Ö´×™ יִתֵּן ×ž×•Ö¼× ×‘Ö¼Ö·×¢Ö²×žÖ´×™×ª×•Ö¹ ×›Ö¼Ö·×ֲש×ֶר עָשָׂה כֵּן יֵעָשֶׂה לּוֹ:
20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Just as he inflicted an injury upon a person, so shall it be inflicted upon him.
Leviticus - Chapter 24
I don't see a sword mentioned once in that chapter.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Forgiveness or Justice?
Patsy Warnick;1477782 wrote: It's Karma
Patsy
Oh it's karma alright, Patsy. The question really is ..... whose karma is it? The one on the right - or - the one on the left?
Patsy
Oh it's karma alright, Patsy. The question really is ..... whose karma is it? The one on the right - or - the one on the left?
Forgiveness or Justice?
Leviticus 26:8
Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.
Typical of countless Biblical quotes supporting living by the sword.
Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.
Typical of countless Biblical quotes supporting living by the sword.