The Real Thanksgiving Story

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:48 pm

Thanksgiving was started by the Pilgrims who were Christians who fled Religious persecution.

Post by **LarsMac** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:37 pm

The following is an excellent review of the real story behind the US Holiday Thanksgiving.

Book Excerpt: The Real Thanksgiving Story – BillMoyers.com

The settlement the Pilgrims called New Plymouth was the ancestral land of the Wampanoag (Pokanoket) people, who called the place Patuxet. Contrary to the popular myth that the Pilgrims arrived to an unoccupied â€œwilderness,â€ it had for untold generations been a well-managed landscape, cleared and maintained for cornfields and crops like beans and squash, as well as for game. Also contrary to popular mythology, the Wampanoags, like most eastern Indians, were farmers, not nomads. Up until the epidemic, the Wampanoag nation had been large and powerful, organized into 69 villages in what is today southeastern Massachusetts and eastern Rhode Island. Their exact population is unknown, but estimates range from 24,000 to upward of 100,000. The epidemic decimated their population, however, and destabilized relations with their traditional enemies, the neighboring Narragansett, Mohegan, and Pequot peoples, among others. In 1620 the Wampanoags were in a state of military tension, if not full-scale war with the Narragansetts...

When the Pilgrims arrived at New Plymouth in the depth of winter, food was the first concern. From colonistsâ€™ journal entries we know that right after their arrival Native homes and graves were robbed of food and other items. Written accounts describe taking â€œthingsâ€ for which they â€œintendedâ€ to pay later. Ever pious and believing in divine predestination, the religious separatists attributed their good fortune to God, â€œfor how else could we have done it without meeting some Indians who might trouble us.â€ Thus, the Pilgrimsâ€™ survival that first winter can be attributed to Indians both alive and dead...

Post by **spot** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:51 pm

xfrodobagginsx;1514901 wrote: Thanksgiving was started by the Pilgrims who were Christians who fled Religious persecution.

Perhaps you could justify your use of the word "persecution" with examples? I had thought the Pilgrim Fathers had wanted to live in a setting where they themselves dictated the religious ethos of their community, rather than to continue living among the hellbound.

xfrodobagginsx · Post by **xfrodobagginsx** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:20 pm

Here is a brief 8 minute video explaining Thanksgiving in America:

Post by **LarsMac** » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:51 pm

xfrodobagginsx;1514911 wrote: Here is a brief 8 minute video explaining Thanksgiving in America:

Seriously? You want us to watch a video of Rush Limbaugh explaining Thanksgiving?

Well, it should be good for a laugh, or two, but No, Thank you.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:52 am

Unable to view video.

May i please have a transcript?

Post by **spot** » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:11 am

xfrodobagginsx;1514901 wrote: Thanksgiving was started by the Pilgrims who were Christians who fled Religious persecution.

Perhaps you could justify your use of the word "persecution" with examples? I had thought the Pilgrim Fathers had wanted to live in a setting where they themselves dictated the religious ethos of their community, rather than to continue living among the hellbound.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:53 pm

Their puritan brethern in england were the ones that banned christmas which they regarded by the as a wasteful festival (after all you won't get in to heaven if you enjoy yourself - laugh and the devil gets in) that threatened core Christian beliefs given that it is in origin a pagan festival. Miserable sods the lot of them sadly their legacy lingers on in the racist bigotry of the christian right in america.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Escaping persecution to, in turn, become the persecutors.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:19 am

So.....white America was started by 'James towners'

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:26 am

Yes their bigotry and hatred echo down through the centuries - not to mention their mysogyny. God cleared the way for them by wiping out the indigenous peoples with disease had it not been for that who knows how things might have turned out.

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:29 am

FourPart;1515031 wrote: Escaping persecution to, in turn, become the persecutors.

Go on, I still haven't been told - what is this "persecution" from which they fled to America? Perhaps you could justify your use of the word "persecution" with examples?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:17 pm

spot;1515048 wrote: Go on, I still haven't been told - what is this "persecution" from which they fled to America? Perhaps you could justify your use of the word "persecution" with examples?
As I understood it, they were Catholics who refused to accept the Church of England & were, therefore considered unlawful & at risk of severe penalties accordingly.

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:15 pm

FourPart;1515071 wrote: As I understood it, they were Catholics who refused to accept the Church of England & were, therefore considered unlawful & at risk of severe penalties accordingly.

Jesus. Tell that to a Puritan!

The bit about "with examples" was particularly important because I have no idea what EVENTS you're describing. Even were what you say true, being "at risk of" is not persecution.

What you describe definitely happened to Catholics, yes, but Puritans were at the opposite end of the religious spectrum.

Some Quakers were jailed. Was anyone on the Mayflower a Quaker?

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:21 pm

FourPart;1515071 wrote: As I understood it, they were Catholics who refused to accept the Church of England & were, therefore considered unlawful & at risk of severe penalties accordingly.

So nothins' changed then? Lol

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:41 pm

I'll have a try this persecution thing, since nobody else is addressing it.

The Pilgrim Fathers sailed to America on board the Mayflower, we're agreed so far?

None of the crew were Puritans as far as I'm aware, do correct me if I'm wrong.

Two thirds of the passengers were similarly not Puritans. They were referred to by the remaining third, who were Puritans, as "The Strangers".

The Puritans were all of them English expatriates living in Leiden in the Netherlands. They went from the Netherlands to America because their children were growing up more Dutch than English and the Puritans wanted a place where they, the Puritans, set the rules and constituted the society and weren't Dutch.

It was the Puritans who commissioned the voyage, the Mayflower set sail with them for England to pick up supplies and The Strangers, most of whom were recruited to be the Lower Class and do the farming work.

I can't see any persecution at all so far.

How am I doing, historically? What bit have I missed?

Oh - Nobody, absolutely nobody, on the Mayflower, was a Catholic, no Quaker arrived in America for the next thirty years and when they arrived they were - guess what - persecuted by the Puritans:In 1657 a group of Quakers from England landed in New Amsterdam. One of them, Robert Hodgson, preached to large crowds of people. He was arrested, imprisoned, and flogged. Governor Peter Stuyvesant issued a harsh ordinance, punishable by fine and imprisonment, against anyone found guilty of harboring Quakers.

Intransigent bastards, Puritans. Why anyone likes them beats me.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:02 am

I've seen somewhere suggestions that the complete submission to the Will of God that they practised as part of their faith helped them cope with the high casualty rates in the early years and keep going - it's all God testing his Chosen people.

We've got the DUP, of course...

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:09 am

Clodhopper;1515182 wrote: I've seen somewhere suggestions that the complete submission to the Will of God that they practised as part of their faith helped them cope with the high casualty rates in the early years and keep going - it's all God testing his Chosen people.

I'd be quite happy for God (were there a God) to persecute the Puritans, I'd probably pay for a ticket in the stalls and stone a few myself. What I have still not seen, and asked to see several times, and don't for one minute believe happened, is any instances of the Puritans - those on the Mayflower, specifically, the ones called The Pilgrim Fathers - fleeing "Persecution". Which among them was persecuted and what did the persecution consist of? They absolutely and undoubtedly persecuted others - they were drunk on power by the time they ran colonies, much like the Stasi. Look at what happened in Salem, for instance. But I claim, and I'd love to be challenged on it here in this thread, that no Mayflower Puritan was persecuted by anybody ever. Come on anyone, show me wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _New_World gives a taste of what these demented Mayflower Puritans were like when it came to imposing their partisan line on Real Christians. Floggings, executions, the works.

We are, after all, discussing The "Real Thanksgiving Story" in this thread. Note the "Real" bit. What persecution, Frodo? You're the one who claimed they were persecuted.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:44 pm

spot;1515189 wrote: I'd be quite happy for God (were there a God) to persecute the Puritans, I'd probably pay for a ticket in the stalls and stone a few myself. What I have still not seen, and asked to see several times, and don't for one minute believe happened, is any instances of the Puritans - those on the Mayflower, specifically, the ones called The Pilgrim Fathers - fleeing "Persecution". Which among them was persecuted and what did the persecution consist of? They absolutely and undoubtedly persecuted others - they were drunk on power by the time they ran colonies, much like the Stasi. Look at what happened in Salem, for instance. But I claim, and I'd love to be challenged on it here in this thread, that no Mayflower Puritan was persecuted by anybody ever. Come on anyone, show me wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _New_World gives a taste of what these demented Mayflower Puritans were like when it came to imposing their partisan line on Real Christians. Floggings, executions, the works.

We are, after all, discussing The "Real Thanksgiving Story" in this thread. Note the "Real" bit. What persecution, Frodo? You're the one who claimed they were persecuted.Wasn't it suggested you read Helter Skelter?

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:30 pm

Ahso!;1515199 wrote: Wasn't it suggested you read Helter Skelter?

Not me. Tude, if I recall.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:15 pm

spot;1515088 wrote: I'll have a try this persecution thing, since nobody else is addressing it.

The Pilgrim Fathers sailed to America on board the Mayflower, we're agreed so far?

None of the crew were Puritans as far as I'm aware, do correct me if I'm wrong.

Two thirds of the passengers were similarly not Puritans. They were referred to by the remaining third, who were Puritans, as "The Strangers".

The Puritans were all of them English expatriates living in Leiden in the Netherlands. They went from the Netherlands to America because their children were growing up more Dutch than English and the Puritans wanted a place where they, the Puritans, set the rules and constituted the society and weren't Dutch.

It was the Puritans who commissioned the voyage, the Mayflower set sail with them for England to pick up supplies and The Strangers, most of whom were recruited to be the Lower Class and do the farming work.

I can't see any persecution at all so far.

How am I doing, historically? What bit have I missed?

Oh - Nobody, absolutely nobody, on the Mayflower, was a Catholic, no Quaker arrived in America for the next thirty years and when they arrived they were - guess what - persecuted by the Puritans:In 1657 a group of Quakers from England landed in New Amsterdam. One of them, Robert Hodgson, preached to large crowds of people. He was arrested, imprisoned, and flogged. Governor Peter Stuyvesant issued a harsh ordinance, punishable by fine and imprisonment, against anyone found guilty of harboring Quakers.

Intransigent bastards, Puritans. Why anyone likes them beats me.

I see some parallels between the Puritansâ€™ claims of persecution and what I hear/see from some groups in the US now. Some of the current claims of persecution of Christians in the US (and there are many) bemoan the fact that they cannot demand that there be prayer in public schools or teach their brand of religion there. Others complain that they cannot overtly discriminate against gay people in housing or business or that they cannot remove womenâ€™s health coverage from employee insurance plans. A couple of complaints were that they could not erect giant crosses on public land. Some were the horror that other religions were treated equally.

The unifying factor in these complaints is the frustration that their narrow religious beliefs do not supersede US law and the beliefs of others. They call it â€œpersecutionâ€.

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:46 pm

That's eye-opening. I've heard of Doublespeak, this sounds very like it.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:47 pm

Another interesting tidbit about the Puritans is that they changed their doctrine once they had their own colony and their religious leaders were now the sole employer, police, judges, school administrators, etc. In England their doctrine was that after an individualâ€™s big salvation experience they knew that they would be going to heaven when they die. After operating their colony for awhile they made an important change, removing that certainty. An individual would now be evaluated at their moment of death -- did they work hard for their employer? follow all of the rules set by their leaders?

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:55 pm

I'll put a question, then. If the Mayflower Puritans and their subsequent followers were blatant scoundrels - and I have no doubt at all that they were - why is Thanksgiving so universally observed these days? Is it possible to celebrate the arrival of the Mayflower without admiring the intolerant religious bigotry and repression of the following hundred years? How do you twist your head that far?

I'm not surprised that the framers of the Constitution had, by 1789, rejected God or his representatives on Earth as any sort of arbiter in the country they were forging.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:20 pm

spot;1515226 wrote: I'll put a question, then. If the Mayflower Puritans and their subsequent followers were blatant scoundrels - and I have no doubt at all that they were - why is Thanksgiving so universally observed these days? Is it possible to celebrate the arrival of the Mayflower without admiring the intolerant religious bigotry and repression of the following hundred years? How do you twist your head that far?

I'm not surprised that the framers of the Constitution had, by 1789, rejected God or his representatives on Earth as any sort of arbiter in the country they were forging.

Well, there ya go. Marketing is everything. Go back to XFrod's statement. The party line for at least the last couple of centuries was exactly as he said. They came to the New World to escape religious persecution, settled in and made friends with their red neighbors who taught them how to farm and then they threw a big feast, Turkey and Dressing and all.

It was all Norman Rockwell for the next hundred or so years until Ol' George and his gang threw your lot out and wrote the Constitution.

Then the story continued with all that other stuff, like Betsy Ross, and Dolly Madison, and the DoughBoys, and how we came over there to save your butts from the Kaiser and the Jolly old Adolf, and we led the world until that Kenyan guy took over and screwed everything up.

Now King Donald is here to save the day, and you all need to show some respect.

It's gonna be Great.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:23 am

Thanksgiving is the same as the rest of the "holidays". Made up, to sell something.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:36 am

YZGI;1515239 wrote: Thanksgiving is the same as the rest of the "holidays". Made up, to sell something.

Here's a puzzler for you - which country do you suppose won the first Baseball World Championship?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:39 am

spot;1515243 wrote: Here's a puzzler for you - which country do you suppose won the first Baseball World Championship?

No idea, but since you asked the question I'll go with Cuba.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:45 am

YZGI;1515246 wrote: No idea, but since you asked the question I'll go with Cuba.

"The Baseball World Cup was an international tournament in which national baseball teams from around the world competed. It was sanctioned by the International Baseball Federation (IBAF). Along with the World Baseball Classic, it was one of two active tournaments considered by the IBAF to be a major world championship".

First played, 1938.

World Champions: Great Britain.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:42 pm

LarsMac;1515231 wrote: Well, there ya go. Marketing is everything. Go back to XFrod's statement. The party line for at least the last couple of centuries was exactly as he said. They came to the New World to escape religious persecution, settled in and made friends with their red neighbors who taught them how to farm and then they threw a big feast, Turkey and Dressing and all.

It was all Norman Rockwell for the next hundred or so years until Ol' George and his gang threw your lot out and wrote the Constitution.

Then the story continued with all that other stuff, like Betsy Ross, and Dolly Madison, and the DoughBoys, and how we came over there to save your butts from the Kaiser and the Jolly old Adolf, and we led the world until that Kenyan guy took over and screwed everything up.

Now King Donald is here to save the day, and you all need to show some respect.

It's gonna be Great.

No.....it's going to be Donald Great!....nobody can do Great like him . he's the best at great! Believe me ....everything is going to be great!

So you mean that kind of great??? :yh_rotfl

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:44 pm

magentaflame;1515260 wrote: No.....it's going to be Donald Great!....nobody can do Great like him . he's the best at great! Believe me ....everything is going to be great!

So you mean that kind of great??? :yh_rotfl

Yup! THAT kinda great. [sigh]

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:46 pm

YZGI;1515239 wrote: Thanksgiving is the same as the rest of the "holidays". Made up, to sell something.

If I here an Australian child say "Santa" again....instead of 'father Christmas' and the word "holidays" and "seasons greetings" is mentioned instead of 'Christmas time' and 'Merry Christmas' ....I"LL GO SPARE!!!!

AND WHEN THE **** DID TURKEY MAKE AN APPEARANCE AT CHRISTMAS TIME????

And CBS just bought Channel ten......so it's going to get worse.

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:59 pm

When I was young the majority British Christmas Day meat was goose. It's drifted a bit to a predominantly turkey choice since.

Perhaps bigger gatherings have a big bird and gooses aren't as big, that might be a consideration.

Turkey for the British Christmas was common by the reign of Elizabeth I and it's never been out of favour since.

The turkey seems the most seasonal bird though - they're grown for the onset of winter and that's it. I doubt there are many turkeys alive between January and the start of summer in this country. That's not the case with any other meat animal I can think of.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:05 pm

It really pisses me off when people say Australia has no traditions or culture. Thing is though, it's the people making us change our ways that say this. Why in the **** do children here celebrate Hollaween???? the day before the rest of the world??? It makes no sense at all.

And why in gods name would anyone want to cook a turkey in an oven for how many hours? in the middle of summer, even the turkeys are confused, they'd be underweight and malting at this time. IT MAKES NO EFFING SENSE!!!

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:10 pm

And at this time of year.... I don't want to see a super bowl!!! I want to see the news on how our cricket team is gearing up for the test! AFL then cricket. Why is there grid iron on our tv's daily????

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:26 pm

I agree, you should perhaps have the same days of the year as us but change what you do on them from the Northern originals.

If you read the four pages at The Turkey At Christmas | OAKDEN you'll know more about turkeys and Christmas and when and why than you did before. It took me a while but I thought it worth the effort.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:31 pm

I know a few people who do 'Christmas in July' (yes it really is a thing) to copy the same conditions of the northern hemisphere.

I agree, you should perhaps have the same days of the year as us but change what you do on them from the Northern originals.

Traditionally we did. Now it's all changing. My upbringing......chicken, cold. Ham, cold. BBQ outside for hot meats. Flies, pool, persperation. Sometimes it would only get to 26 degrees and we would put on a jumper and have the chicken hot.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:37 pm

Oh and if you're wondering Father Christmas used to take his jacket off when he flew here. Many Christmas cards of old had him dressed with his jacket off and suspenders showing. Drinking a beer and eating biscuits and Chrissy cake..........now the poor barstard has to make do with soy milk and gluten free crackers

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:38 pm

magentaflame;1515281 wrote: Oh and if you're wondering Father Christmas used to take his jacket off when he flew here. Many Christmas cards of old had him dressed with his jacket off and suspenders showing. Drinking a beer and eating biscuits and Chrissy cake..........now the poor barstard has to make do with soy milk and gluten free crackers

That all sounds dreadful, we don't do that here at all. Robins, snowflakes, nothing else.

I just booked a small apartment in Beijing, I must be losing my mind.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:47 pm

WHAT the? Why?

Post by **spot** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:55 pm

It will shake my ideas about, I thought. Revise my opinions.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:14 pm

spot;1515289 wrote: It will shake my ideas about, I thought. Revise my opinions.

Thats like me going to london and thinking i know Britain now. I hope youre able to travel outside that area.

Post by **spot** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:45 pm

magentaflame;1515320 wrote: Thats like me going to london and thinking i know Britain now. I hope youre able to travel outside that area.

Well yes, that's the intention. There's the bullet train and internal flights, it's possible now to reach Llasa, I was thinking of a raft cruise through those sugarloaf-like karst mountains along the river Li. A couple of nights in Xi'an. I've not really started planning, I'm still having my first read of the Lonely Planet or whichever guide I got. I only took the bait when I found a return flight cheaper than I thought possible. If it turns out I can get two days in Vladivostok without a visa I'll try for that as well.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:51 pm

spot;1515330 wrote: Well yes, that's the intention. There's the bullet train and internal flights, it's possible now to reach Llasa, I was thinking of a raft cruise through those sugarloaf-like karst mountains along the river Li. A couple of nights in Xi'an. I've not really started planning, I'm still having my first read of the Lonely Planet or whichever guide I got. I only took the bait when I found a return flight cheaper than I thought possible. If it turns out I can get two days in Vladivostok without a visa I'll try for that as well.

Im rather jealous....vladistok....but Llasa?.... i can only dream

Post by **spot** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:13 pm

I've no idea whether we'll manage to see either Llasa or Vladivostock but the apartment's booked for a month so there's enough flexibility. There was a discount for booking a full month, the flight price didn't change by staying longer, why not, I expect I'm only going the once.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:43 am

Oh no Mags. Now I have to go and look at the Test score...

...and the Rugby league! I forgot! Aus 6-0 up with 7 mins to go...

Australia win 6-0. Congrats to them, the England lads pushed them hard but couldn't quite do it. When you consider the Aussies had won all their other games by about 30 points it's enough to earn respect.

Oh, and Steve Smith bowled by Overton - his first wicket in Tests.