Was Katrina Sent by God?

[Lon]

I was talking with God just the other day and I asked him "God, did you have anything to do with Katrina?" he replied, "Absolutely not".

[Clint]

Well, this thread has degenerated into exactly what I thought it would. I’m on to something else…Let the buzzards have this one.

[Jives]

parago wrote: By the way.. since when does a certain age guarantee universal wisdom?


Age doesn't guarantee universal wisdom, but it does guarantee more than you have.

I didn't mean to mock, but you guys have a funny way of dealing with sarcasm, and you know why? Because of a lack of answers to the questions sarcasm raises.


And that's where you'd be wrong. I have information you don't have. You see...I've died and come back to life before. I've seen the back side of my own head from outside my body. And I've seen what waits beyond.

You are suffering from a lack of faith. Without faith, everything in life gets tougher. Without the confidence that faith brings, all trouble is magnified and fear grips the soul. Fear and doubt.

Without faith, there is no point to existance. Life becomes a desolate, hedonistic, selfish, and depressing trudge to the grave.

I won't try to change your beliefs...time and experience will do that for me.

[Lon]

Jives--------Do you believe that it's possible to have faith with out belief in a deity?

[Jives]

ArnoldLayne wrote: Jives , how patronising.


Not patronizing, just sympathetic and empathetic.

Leave me to my faithless existence.


My intentions exactly. I'm merely pointing out that a bout of cancer can cure faithlessness rather quickly. "There are no atheists in foxholes", eh?:D

There was a time when I lost faith, but the world and time gave it back to me. That's all I'm saying.

I'm finding it neither tough nor desolate.


So far, which only means you haven't faced any serious challenges yet.

With my family and loved ones with me all the way, my inevitable journey to the grave will never be a depressing trudge.


Well now....I thought you said you didn't have any faith. Yet in this very sentence you express the faith that your family will get you through tough times.

That's faith my friend. You express it, even as you say you don't have it. lol.

:wah:

[telaquapacky]

Clint wrote: I'm not taking issue with your conclusion. It may be valid. The verse you cite doesn't bring me to that conclusion though.

Jesus said that if they didn’t repent they would likewise perish. That means that if they wouldn’t turn away from their sinful ways they would face what the Galilaeans faced. It could be argued that N.O. was unrepentant. It could also be argued that many cities are the same way and didn’t experience the same treatment. Maybe they are to learn from N.O.? Clint- thanks for your observation. Jesus said a similar thing to the paralytic He healed at the Pool of Bethesda. When Jesus met the man later at the temple, He told him, "Quit sinning or something worse may happen to you." What would be worse than being invalid, at a pool with no Lifeguard for 38 years? Being lost forever, that's what.

Presently, God does not bring calamities on populations because of their sin, otherwise, His aim is poor and He acts too late- for many human tragedies could have been prevented if God had intervened earlier.

But the Bible teaches that there is a one last time, at the second coming of Christ, when God will come to punish sin. The worst thing that could happen to the healed paralytic would be to find himself disqualified for eternal life on that day. And Jesus may have been saying in the verse I quoted in Luke, "I'm not going to drop a tower on you. But if you don't repent, on the day that all the towers fall, one will certainly fall on you." Jesus liked to blend the present with the future to remind us that what we do today has an impact on how we will fare on the day that He returns.

We made a significant contribution to relief efforts there. Mabvuto Saona Nkhope. "Trouble doesn't look at your face."

[Jives]

jackie wrote: Sometimes bad things just happen. If I was hit by a car while picking my son up from school today, it would be an accident not a cruel act of God.

My God is not a homicidal maniac.


How can you know God's will? The Universe is a very big place and infinitely complex. For you to say that you understand all of God's motives and plans is an impossiblity.

Each person's life is a thread in an infinitely large and intricate tapestry. None of us can see the whole picture from where we are.

I like your example, but where you assume that anytime a person dies, it's just fate, I assume that it is part of a bigger plan that I cannot comprehend with my limited knowledge.

Perhaps your death by automobile accident would cause a hundred other people to drive more safely, thereby saving dozens of other lives.

Or maybe without a quick and painless death, you would have lived to suffer cancer.

Perhaps your death would cause your family to come together more strongly, for generations to come.

The list of possibilites is endless.

That's why faith is so important. Without it, death becomes a senseless tragedy. And Life a pointless experience.

With it, death is meaningful and life is spiritual.

But you guys go ahead and take pride in being faithless....I'll check in on you on your deathbed to see if you've changed you mind.:wah:

[BabyRider]

Jives wrote:

But you guys go ahead and take pride in being faithless....I'll check in on you on your deathbed to see if you've changed you mind.:wah:
Jives, you and I are pals, and you know I respect your views for the most part, even when they differ from mine. I have take exception to this comment, though.

What we are all talking about is our own personal belief system. Why do you feel this obvious superiority because some people's beliefs are different from yours? It is a belief, whether it's the belief God does exist, or he doesn't. What makes you so sure that yours is correct, is based on your experience, in your own life. What makes others believe theirs is correct is theirs, and what they have seen, lived and done. A lot of the people you are poking fun at, you don't know from Adam, and have no knowledge of their lives. To mock a person's future deathbed experience or to presume to know what they will be going through, or have gone through is rather egotistical. If this faith that you hold so dear gives you this "holier-than-thou" stance, I'll be happy to do without. I wouldn't ever want to come across the way that comment made you appear.

[Jives]

LOL! Don't get me wrong....I'm just confused. I find it difficult to understand how anyone can move through such a violent, turbulent, and unsure plane of existance without faith. How do you deal with tragedy without it? I was just trying to get into your heads on the subject.

God exists or He doesn't. I find it infinitely comforting to believe that He does. But of course it's a personal choice.

Well...nothing I've said today was taken the way I meant it, and I've not said anything the way I wanted to say it (a problem with human communications sometimes)...so I'll take a powder and let it all go.:wah:

My apologies if I've offended anyone. (Of course I've been offended by some of your comments too, so let's not all act like I'm the bad guy here.)

Eventually, given time, this whole complexity will be clear to us all.

That'll be my last post in this thread.

[nvalleyvee]

If I were to believe in God, I would believe in a kind and forgiving God. I hardly think New Orleans was equivalent to the other 2 cities He supposedly smote. NO - Katrina definately sent by MAMA Earth.

[Ted]

Arnold, Jackie, Nvalleyvee, BabyRider:-6

I am a person of faith yet I can agree with your posts. Well put.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[BTS]

I am sorry............. But I do not believe in pre-destiny.

Therfore I believe this was not an act of God but an act of nature.

[pantsonfire321@aol.com]

If it was all gods fault why aint they screaming hes racist - maybe because you can`t sue god for compensation .

[gmc]

It may or may not have come from God but I am very sure that anyone who is certain it did probably doesn't know. Why is it always the vindictive god of the old testament that people choose to believe in? Many children were killed, what did they do to incur the wrath of God?

From the sanctimonious preserve us. If it's god's pinishment does that mean they will not help the victims since they deserve their fate?

[PurpleChicken]

Here's an interesting thought..... Will people be covered by insurance, or will Katrina be considered an 'Act of God' which is a normal exception to household insurance.



Makes the practical interpretation of this question a bit different to the philosophical one....

[gmc]

The Man who sued God

http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2003/08/01/t ... view.shtml

[Accountable]

parago wrote: That's a very interesting point indeed! I'm pretty sure all Believers will soon change their minds about God sending Katrina when it comes to insurance payouts.
I like you, parago, but if you keep sneering your face is gonna get stuck like that.

[Wolverine]

was Katrina "sent" by God?

No.

[BabyRider]

Wolverine wrote: was Katrina "sent" by God?

No.
Now see?? Instead of 8 pages of griping, we should have just waited for Wolvie to come along and supply the answer! :yh_bigsmi

[BabyRider]

parago wrote: I'd really be interested in the source of Wolvie's conviction.
Faith.

:yh_wink :yh_rotfl

[ldsguy]

I believe we are well into the Latter Days. All that is now happening in the world was prophesized in the scriptures. (The natural disasters, the rampant lawlessness, the terrorism, the disrespect of authority including parentual, the climate changes, the breakdown of the traditional family, etc.) It is my belief that God is not sending these disasters, but in his forknowledge knew they would occur hense the prophesies.

I believe that much of what is happening now, is the result of human mismanagement of the planet along with the evil in the hearts of many. However, I do believe that the increasing Godlessness, especialy in the western world, is resulting in Gods withdrawal of His protection. We reap what we sow.

[Wolverine]

BabyRider wrote: Now see?? Instead of 8 pages of griping, we should have just waited for Wolvie to come along and supply the answer! :yh_bigsmi


wow. you're good.

very nice with the subtle sarcasm. you're training is almost complete.

[Wolverine]

parago wrote: A true picture book example of energy management and efficiency. Although.. I'd really be interested in the source of Wolvie's conviction.


me, myself, an i. we all helped.

[gmc]

posted by wolverine

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyRider

Now see?? Instead of 8 pages of griping, we should have just waited for Wolvie to come along and supply the answer!

wow. you're good.

very nice with the subtle sarcasm. you're training is almost complete.


I must be thick, I assumed he was being complimentary.

posted by idsguy

I believe we are well into the Latter Days. All that is now happening in the world was prophesized in the scriptures. (The natural disasters, the rampant lawlessness, the terrorism, the disrespect of authority including parentual, the climate changes, the breakdown of the traditional family, etc.) It is my belief that God is not sending these disasters, but in his forknowledge knew they would occur hense the prophesies.

I believe that much of what is happening now, is the result of human mismanagement of the planet along with the evil in the hearts of many. However, I do believe that the increasing Godlessness, especialy in the western world, is resulting in Gods withdrawal of His protection. We reap what we sow.


Just pretend for a moment you had never read these prophesies. Would you still believe the end of days was coming? What is worrying is the number of numpties in positions of power that seem to believe these things.

What happened to all the soothsayers much beloved of the religious press who did not foresee 911 or Katrina?

Nowadays we have a world where people thousands of miles away go out of their way to help people any way they can, 250,000 people march during the G8 summit demanding that their governments take action to end world poverty.

It's hard to respect those in authority when they allow such things to go on in the world and would rather spend money on weapons than on their people. That would rather sell dictators weapons than refuse to supply them altogether in case someone else sells them instead. That organisations like the EEC stockpile food when so many are starving.

As a free citizen disrespect for authority should be part of your psyche, wh put "them" in authority?

What family values are breaking down? Women are no longer seen as being the possessions of their husband, very few woud think a parent has the right to beat a child "for their own good" or that someone shopuld stay in a violent relationship "for the sake of the family" People aren't stoned for adultery or burned at the stake for being witches.

Tolerance of other races and religons is at a level never seen before, racism is no longer the overt expression of primitive hate it once was but now hides in shame and perhaps one day will go away altogether.

As you will have gathered i am not religious, I'm an unbeliever, a heretic, a free thinker, take your pick. Dear god preserve me from the godly

Tell me what kind of perverted religon wants to see the end of the world and glories in hurricane Katrina and the death of thousands as being a sign that it's coming?

[Clint]

gmc wrote: Tell me what kind of perverted religon wants to see the end of the world and glories in hurricane Katrina and the death of thousands as being a sign that it's coming?
Where does such venom come from? When I read this kind of a mischaracterization of what people are saying or believing I have fear for the safety of believing people. You accuse us of hate with a clear hatred that you feel is justified.

I have never heard anyone “glory” in the killing of people by Katrina other than our Muslim “friends”. I didn’t hear people glory in the killing of the people on 9-11 other than our Muslim “friends”. You are characterizing people of faith from your hate filtered view of them.

You may hear people say they are looking forward to the end of the world. They will also say that they believe that is when the Messiah will return and all things that are good will be restored. Additionally, you will hear them say they want the whole world…all of mankind… to be ready for His return so none are lost. You may not believe in the Messiah, that’s your choice but it doesn’t make the people who do believe, bad people.

[gmc]

posted by clint

Where does such venom come from? When I read this kind of a mischaracterization of what people are saying or believing I have fear for the safety of believing people. You accuse us of hate with a clear hatred that you feel is justified.

I have never heard anyone “glory” in the killing of people by Katrina other than our Muslim “friends”. I didn’t hear people glory in the killing of the people on 9-11 other than our Muslim “friends”. You are characterizing people of faith from your hate filtered view of them.


Methinks you read too much in to the words. I don't actually hate anyone I accused no one of hatred so if I offended you I apologise. That was not my intention. Nor did I menton 911 which was clearly an act of man and hardly the same sort of thing so why it comes in to this is beyond me.

One of the problems I find with this kind of forum discussion is that rather than people expressing differing points of view and listening to others is that it very rapidly deteriorates in to perceived insult and counter insult.

Clearly I do not share your beliefs but I do respect them. I also have difficulty understanding them as, If I may be blunt without offending you, I find them preposterous just as i suspect you find my lack of belief equally so. I also like discussing these things although it usually ends up agreeing to disagree.

I was trying to point out that rather than being in the latter days with values breaking down etc, the would is actually a much more caring and tolerant place than it has ever been in it's history. Individuals from opposite ends of the globe go out of their way to help their fellow man. Governments are increasingly taken to task for the hypocrisy of their words when compared to their deeds. Political leaders don't like being called to task and will deflect attention any way they can but it's getting harder and harder all the time for them to hide the consequences of actions done in our name.

I grew up in the sixties and at one point was certain that another world war was inevitable. Now it is inpossible to imagine europeans being prpared to go to war they way they oftentimes did so in the past. That's not due to a loss of patriotism or national sentiment it's mainly due to the fact that most people now know what war involves and would take some convincing to fight. Warfare should be a last resort when all else fails.

On the other hand religious fanatics of all stamps are willing to make war in a just cause, be it in Israel, the middle east, Northern Ireland. I worry they will suck us all in to their stupid conflicts. Bigotry has a particular visciousness when it is religious in origin.

posted by clint

You may hear people say they are looking forward to the end of the world. They will also say that they believe that is when the Messiah will return and all things that are good will be restored. Additionally, you will hear them say they want the whole world…all of mankind… to be ready for His return so none are lost. You may not believe in the Messiah, that’s your choice but it doesn’t make the people who do believe, bad people.


Very true, but you must admit there is a certain elment that take great delight in seeing the wicked get their comeuppance, never mind the innocents look at all the sinners god just clobbered.

What about all those who believe only they have the right of it and only those who worship their way will be saved? Are they bad people or just missing the point?

Please don't take offence at anything I have said, I am not trying to wind you up. It's just very difficult to say to someone who is religious, "I disagree with you" without them seeming to take it personally.

We have our own brand of christian fundamentalists, give me money and the lord will save you. On a channel near you soon.

http://www.dreamradio.co.uk/

Katrina caught them on the hop, they might actually have to give money to non believing poor people. (yes I am being sarcastic this time). If Katrina was an act of god is it right for a religious organisation to help those god clearly intended to kill?



http://www.dreamradio.co.uk/home/propheticbulletin/



Time for the Church to rise up as mighty Deliverers, 2002

"The Lord hears the cries of those who have been slain for the glory of God. Those who have been slain for the cause of Christ. They groan they cry and wait for the revelation of the Sons of God when the Lord will bring forth His people. This is the day in which the Lord wants to manifest his power. Yes the Lord will take you and cause you step forward… for you shall speak a word of deliverance to those in bondage. There are hordes of people waiting to be delivered. He is sending His Church. They are sitting in chains and in darkness, but he Lord has heard their cry… And he is sending forth his Church to break the chains of those who are bound by the enemy.

"There are those in the Church who are asleep, not with an ordinary sleep, not with the slumber of those who truly rest, but they have been put under by the power of the enemy into a stupor and they are unaware. Speak to these who sleep and awaken them. For the hour of God’s power has come. And He is about to bring out of the shadows, out of the places of hiding, out of obscurity those who have been hidden from the eyes of the world. They are those who the Lord has been training…those who he has been purifying and they shall be brought out into the open and they shall manifest the power of God… and the chains shall drop off and the darkness role away and there will be a glad shout of joy and deliverance that will rise from the thousands who will come to the saviour.

The Lord is manifesting his children to bring deliverance to a suffering world, to bring home those who are lost. Set the Captives free My children…Go forth in the name of the Lord. You have wondered why the Lord restrained you… why His hand appeared to be against you… it was not a hand against you, but a hand waiting for the time to bring you forth… and the lessons you have been learning, the tests you have been passing through, the trials you have been facing have been preparing you for the time when God will reveal his power through you to a lost and dying world.

"This is the time, this is the hour, this is the beginning of a new thing that God is going to do, where the weak shall be strong and the silent shall be the proclaimers of a powerful word of deliverance that will surge through this world to raise the multitudes for the glory of God. And there shall be a new sound that will fill the air – the songs of deliverance as the people rejoice in the manifestation of God’s people through the power of the Holy Spirit."

- Jean Darnall, GOD TV Braveheart II Conference, Edinburgh, October 2003

[ldsguy]

gmc wrote: posted by wolverine



I must be thick, I assumed he was being complimentary.

posted by idsguy



Just pretend for a moment you had never read these prophesies. Would you still believe the end of days was coming? What is worrying is the number of numpties in positions of power that seem to believe these things.

What happened to all the soothsayers much beloved of the religious press who did not foresee 911 or Katrina?

Nowadays we have a world where people thousands of miles away go out of their way to help people any way they can, 250,000 people march during the G8 summit demanding that their governments take action to end world poverty.

It's hard to respect those in authority when they allow such things to go on in the world and would rather spend money on weapons than on their people. That would rather sell dictators weapons than refuse to supply them altogether in case someone else sells them instead. That organisations like the EEC stockpile food when so many are starving.

As a free citizen disrespect for authority should be part of your psyche, wh put "them" in authority?

What family values are breaking down? Women are no longer seen as being the possessions of their husband, very few woud think a parent has the right to beat a child "for their own good" or that someone shopuld stay in a violent relationship "for the sake of the family" People aren't stoned for adultery or burned at the stake for being witches.

Tolerance of other races and religons is at a level never seen before, racism is no longer the overt expression of primitive hate it once was but now hides in shame and perhaps one day will go away altogether.

As you will have gathered i am not religious, I'm an unbeliever, a heretic, a free thinker, take your pick. Dear god preserve me from the godly

Tell me what kind of perverted religon wants to see the end of the world and glories in hurricane Katrina and the death of thousands as being a sign that it's coming?


No kind of reliegion to my knowledge perverted or otherwise.

However I do believe in Biblical propehesy. Every single prophesy found in the Bible has been fulfilled to the letter. Those prophesies for the latter days are happening all around us now. However as you state you are an unbeliever, there is no point in trying to convince you different. Time will tell.

What family values are breaking down? Marriage. Over 50% of couples now live together outside marriage. (no commitment to each other and little security for bringing up children), single parent families (denied both a mother and a father). Its forcast this will soon be the normal in the western world. I see marraige as the foundation of society. When that foundation no longer exists I believe society will collapse. Its happening now.

Society is breaking down. It will continue to do so. Sure many are oposing these trends. Mostly the what you call the Godly. But they are not winning the battle by any means. OK no more burning of wiches etc., but Genocide, terrorism and lawlessness will continue to escalate. NOT because God has decreed it or sent it but because of general godlessness, this is the outcome.

If the whole world would live according to the scriptures from this moment on, the result would be paradise. But that of course wont happen.

[gmc]

posted by idsguy

However I do believe in Biblical propehesy. Every single prophesy found in the Bible has been fulfilled to the letter. Those prophesies for the latter days are happening all around us now. However as you state you are an unbeliever, there is no point in trying to convince you different. Time will tell.


No there isn't, we can agree to disagree about it and remain civil to each other.

posted by idsguy

What family values are breaking down? Marriage. Over 50% of couples now live together outside marriage. (no commitment to each other and little security for bringing up children), single parent families (denied both a mother and a father). Its forcast this will soon be the normal in the western world. I see marraige as the foundation of society. When that foundation no longer exists I believe society will collapse. Its happening now.


Surely it is more important that they remain together? What about catholic marrying protestant? Would you really prefer the hypocrisy of sham marraiges to hide misery or couples getting married to humour their parents. What would you say to a catholic marrying a protestant-stay apart because you are differnt religons and god won't approve? Or to a christian marrying a muslim-don't do it unless she or she converts?

I know couples that stay together despite one or other of the sets of parents objecting to the ralationship and trying to break them up. Muslim girl, British boy, black marrying white, many choose to live together without the trappings that bring dissension to so many. It's not marraige that is the foundation but the relationship between people, a bit of paper means little.

Single parents, I come from a single parent family-my father died when i was a child at least the kind of blind prejudice against widows and other single parents is no longer acceptable.

There are fewer babies up for adoption as nowadays girls are not forced to give up their children to save the "honour" of the family. Single parenthood is better than ruined lives and the shame that used to be piled on people. Fallen woman is a term most teenagers would not recognise any more and if they did would think it ridiculous. That is not a failure in values it is tolerance and understanding.

The other myth is that abuse within families never used to happen. It always did but no one would believe the victims or do anything about it. The catholic church is only now facing up to the abuse perpetrated by it's own priests on children. How can any organisation so morally bankrupt as to turn a blind eye to such a thing still claim any right to lecture the rest of us. (No offence to any catholics, i use them as i know there have been a couple of high profile cases in the US and the goings on of the free church are obscure even in scotland)

The single biggest reason for the change is economic. Women can support themselves and get out of a rotten marraige whereas before they had to stay because they couldn't support themselves and society condemned them and their children. Many employers sacked women as soon as they married and many would not employ single parents.

Many divorces nowadays are after 20-30 years of marraige as the last generation brought up to stick to a marraige through thick and thin realise they have a choice and can get out and choose to do so as they acquire the moral courage to make their own decision.

posted by idsguy

Society is breaking down. It will continue to do so. Sure many are oposing these trends. Mostly the what you call the Godly.


Society is changing, people are a lot less gullible than they were an less ready to follow blindly those who would tell them how to live their lives and sit on judgement on them for moral transgressions.

What is frightening is religious evangelism and the rise of cults brainwashing their followers. Give me money and I will save your soul, I can never understand why people fall for it. Blow yourself up along with indidels and you will go to heaven. We need more sceptics in the world not more believers.

[Clint]

gmc wrote: posted by clint



Methinks you read too much in to the words. I don't actually hate anyone I accused no one of hatred so if I offended you I apologise. That was not my intention. Nor did I menton 911 which was clearly an act of man and hardly the same sort of thing so why it comes in to this is beyond me.

One of the problems I find with this kind of forum discussion is that rather than people expressing differing points of view and listening to others is that it very rapidly deteriorates in to perceived insult and counter insult.


You may be right. I may have read too much in to your words. Only you know the answer to that. I will take your word for it and apologize for over reacting. I signed off of this thread earlier just because I could see this coming, then jumped back in when I shoul have stayed out. My earlier judgment was much better.

I included 9/11 to point out who our enemy is. It isn't people who think Katrina was sent by God.

I don't share your view of the condition of mankind. We have a planet being populated with children who don't have families. AIDS has just begun to give us grief. The drugs people are using are stronger than ever before and we have a large population of people who will do anything to support their addiction. Most of our young people think love is all about sex and romance. The gap between the rich and the poor is getting wider every day. Individual autonomy and privacy are being sacrificed for security. We are being bombed and terrorized by Muslim extremists who seem to be supported by the majority of their main line brethren. Korea would like to destroy the west and she has a lot of support in the world. I could go on but I think you can see my point.

Was Katrina sent by God? I don’t know. Could Katrina have been sent by God? Yes, in my opinion, God can rain on the just and the unjust at the same time and still be just. I have spent many decades wondering how that could be so and I have concluded that it can be. I can’t lay it out in a way that will give you the same understanding... that's between you and God. It is an answer that comes through study and prayer with a willingness to let God be God. When we expect God to conform to our mental image of Him we never even get a glempse of Him.



Again, sorry I jumped so hard. It sounds like I offended you and I shouldn’t have done that. Pretty much the only people I will intintionally offend are those who say they believe as I do, yet set out to destroy the faith of their "fellow believers".

[Jives]

BTS wrote: I am sorry............. But I do not believe in pre-destiny.

Therfore I believe this was not an act of God but an act of nature.


God is Nature, Nature is God. "God is in the rocks and the trees and all living things."

You believe that God is omniscient, don't you? So if he knew about Katrina in advance, why didn't He stop it?;)

[Jives]

gmc wrote:

Many divorces nowadays are after 20-30 years of marraige as the last generation brought up to stick to a marraige through thick and thin realise they have a choice and can get out and choose to do so as they acquire the moral courage to make their own decision.


It doesn't take any moral courage to be a quitter, quite the opposite I'd say.

[ldsguy]

gmc wrote: posted by idsguy



No there isn't, we can agree to disagree about it and remain civil to each other.

posted by idsguy



Surely it is more important that they remain together? What about catholic marrying protestant? Would you really prefer the hypocrisy of sham marraiges to hide misery or couples getting married to humour their parents. What would you say to a catholic marrying a protestant-stay apart because you are differnt religons and god won't approve? Or to a christian marrying a muslim-don't do it unless she or she converts?

I know couples that stay together despite one or other of the sets of parents objecting to the ralationship and trying to break them up. Muslim girl, British boy, black marrying white, many choose to live together without the trappings that bring dissension to so many. It's not marraige that is the foundation but the relationship between people, a bit of paper means little.

Single parents, I come from a single parent family-my father died when i was a child at least the kind of blind prejudice against widows and other single parents is no longer acceptable.

There are fewer babies up for adoption as nowadays girls are not forced to give up their children to save the "honour" of the family. Single parenthood is better than ruined lives and the shame that used to be piled on people. Fallen woman is a term most teenagers would not recognise any more and if they did would think it ridiculous. That is not a failure in values it is tolerance and understanding.

The other myth is that abuse within families never used to happen. It always did but no one would believe the victims or do anything about it. The catholic church is only now facing up to the abuse perpetrated by it's own priests on children. How can any organisation so morally bankrupt as to turn a blind eye to such a thing still claim any right to lecture the rest of us. (No offence to any catholics, i use them as i know there have been a couple of high profile cases in the US and the goings on of the free church are obscure even in scotland)

The single biggest reason for the change is economic. Women can support themselves and get out of a rotten marraige whereas before they had to stay because they couldn't support themselves and society condemned them and their children. Many employers sacked women as soon as they married and many would not employ single parents.

Many divorces nowadays are after 20-30 years of marraige as the last generation brought up to stick to a marraige through thick and thin realise they have a choice and can get out and choose to do so as they acquire the moral courage to make their own decision.

posted by idsguy



Society is changing, people are a lot less gullible than they were an less ready to follow blindly those who would tell them how to live their lives and sit on judgement on them for moral transgressions.

What is frightening is religious evangelism and the rise of cults brainwashing their followers. Give me money and I will save your soul, I can never understand why people fall for it. Blow yourself up along with indidels and you will go to heaven. We need more sceptics in the world not more believers.


We are obviously poles apart lets just agree to radicaly disagree.

[gmc]

posted by idsguy

We are obviously poles apart lets just agree to radicaly disagree.


Clearly we are but no problem there I can agree to disagree. I have a compulsion to keep going over what I believe and think, sometimes I shift a little other times I don't. Don't take this amiss but I often find if you take a set of facts and put a different interpretation or explanation on them it gets rejected because it conflicts with the preferred world view. Yes I am well aware you could say the same about me.

You take a dim view of the way the world is going I don't. We need a secular world, religon can cause too many problems.

You see the breadown of marraige as a bad thing, I see it as a change to the bad old days when societal pressure kept people in situations they would have been better out of. Social pressure can be incredibly oppressive-just ask a teenage asian girl forced in to an arranged marraige against their will. That's something in the UK we have tended to ignore rather than interfere with someone elses culture and religon. One other way of looking at it is we were allowing a crime to be committed because we were worried about offending somebody's religious sensibilities. There have even been "honour" killings and their defenders saying we don't understand their culture. Individual freedom of choice is the cornerstone of any free society, that some would abuse a free society or would want to impose their own morality doesn't mean we should listen to them.

posted by idsguy

If the whole world would live according to the scriptures from this moment on, the result would be paradise. But that of course wont happen.




Whose version and interpretation of the scriptures?

posted by jives

It doesn't take any moral courage to be a quitter, quite the opposite I'd say.




After 20-30 years most people would think they had given things a good try. Sometimes you just have to walk away from things. Again don't take this amiss, I'm trying to provke debate not antagonism, but who would you condemn in a marraige break up. The man or the woman?

[Ted]

gmc:-6

I have to agree with you on this one. As humans we can create a hell of our own without demanding that folks stay there.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[gmc]

posted by ted

gmc

I have to agree with you on this one. As humans we can create a hell of our own without demanding that folks stay there.

Shalom

Ted


I was kind of hoping I would get a response from someone who disagreed with me. It was a serious question. Forced marraiges are a serious issue that gets blurred over for fear of offending someones culture. When marraiges split up almost invariably the woman was seen as breaking the marraige vows, divorced women wereistracised divorced men were not, bit hypocritical, It's not that long ago when it was acceptable to beat your kids as punishment, now most woud consider it child abuse-I don't mean a warning smack but someone taking a belt to a child.

I do have a massive prejudice in that I associate religious fundamentalism of any kind with ignorance, bigotry and intolerance. Anyone who claims to know the mind of god and delight in divine retribition and acts of god as a warning to humanity should not be taken seriously

[Jives]

gmc wrote: I do have a massive prejudice in that I associate religious fundamentalism of any kind with ignorance, bigotry and intolerance.


Which would be rather contradictory, wouldn't it? Anyone who is a true Christian will understand that those qualities are the exact opposites of the ones Jesus wanted us to live.

I know lots of Christians....and not one of those people exhibits those characteristics.

But I guess I can understand your feelings. I think all Atheists are people-hating, anti-life, negatively oriented, unpatriotic, depressing sociopaths.

Anyone who claims to know the mind of god and delight in divine retribition and acts of god as a warning to humanity should not be taken seriously


Really? Who here has done that? I claimed the exact opposite...that no one can know the mind of God and therefore cannot understand the far reaching consequences of any event. From the posts I've seen, Clint agreed with me.

You are the only one who has put forth that theory. I guess it's what you'd like to think people have said...isn't it?

[Ted]

gmc:-6

I have very serious concerns about fundamentalism myself. In fact Generally I believe it is contrary to the life and message of Jesus. It is a betrayal of our Lord especialy when it comes out in the extreme.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Skeeter]

I am going to un-cork the bottle and let the contents flow...and oh, will I ever get 'stuff' on this one....

Does it ever seem odd to you that the most evil part of area flooded is being cleaned up and re-opened for business the fastest and the firstest....you don't suppose Satan has anything to do with that, do you ? IIf you respond that there is no such person as Satan....well, so be it.

[Accountable]

So God flooded New Orleans and Satan is cleaning it up???