It's Not the Gun that Kills!

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:58 am

AnneBoleyn;1462055 wrote: Yes Bruv, that is why Mayor Bloomberg & other mayors of large cities are complaining about the ease of guns in other states, as they wind up illegally sold to gangs, etc. They may have been bought "legally" but it is for an illegal purpose. Almost every gun used in crime in the north comes here that way, but gun runners who are legally allowed to buy these weapons. Mayor BLAMEburg is correct to blame.

The UK is seperated from Europe by a stretch of water, we have custom controls to stop illegal guns and such like entering the country, because gun ownership here is tightly controlled. And yet, because of armed conflicts within Europe and elsewhere, there are still guns brought into the country illegally, brought in to sell or use by criminals.

And yet in America where all state borders are open, you rely on people being law abiding and up to date with the gun laws in the state they are crossing into.........strange place America.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:13 am

Bruv;1462079 wrote: ..... in America where all state borders are open, you rely on people being law abiding and up to date with the gun laws in the state they are crossing into.........

It must be awfully painful pressing the tongue against your cheek with such force.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:35 am

High Threshold;1462068 wrote: Dat sound good ta me, Elvira! We starts wit da economicies and works ourselves ta racialities 'n wa'cha call dem class separations, capitalistics flautin' they's wealth 'n spitting on da others, no jobs, bad in-employment benefits 'n da medical fa-cill-ities dat dey ain't got. Know i'm sayin'?

Sounds right. We are overworked here with little benefits, including almost no vacation time. Zombies.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:47 am

Bruv;1462053 wrote: They call it the United States, a collection of states with differing laws. Just because this side of the state line there are conditions for gun ownership, guns will inevitably get transported over from neighbouring or more distant states where there is ease of ownership..........or didn't the legislators think of that ?

Actually, there are laws regulating intrastate gun transfers. I ain't no lawyer or expert on such things, but from I understand penalties for illegal transfer can be quite severe. Like you said, we are a collection of different states. There is one rule by the Federal Government, and the states may add additional rules and penalties.

For example I want to give my favorite gun to a nephew who lives in California. To legally transfer that gun I must first go to a person with a Federal Firearms License

The FFL must send it to another FFL in CA.

Now nephew cannot pick it up unless he has a HANDGUN SAFETY CERTIFICATE

Nephew now goes through the FBI National Instant Criminal Background Check System

NEXT

And on top of all that, he would have to wait ten days to pick it up!

Of course if I ever go back to visit family in California, it wouldn't occur to me to just bring that gun along and had it over to the kid, violating all kinds of laws.

Kinda makes me wonder, who are those mayors fooling?

It is immoral to prevent citizens from access to the best means of protection available.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:57 am

High Threshold;1462083 wrote: It must be awfully painful pressing the tongue against your cheek with such force.

What a concept

.... in America where all state borders are open, you rely on people being law abiding and up to date with the gun laws in the state they are crossing into.........

YES YES YES

That is so damn true.

A late flight landed Utah gun owner Greg Revell in jail for 10 days after he got stranded in New Jersey

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:06 am

tude dog;1462121 wrote: Actually, there are laws regulating intrastate gun transfers. I ain't no lawyer or expert on such things, but from I understand penalties for illegal transfer can be quite severe. Like you said, we are a collection of different states. There is one rule by the Federal Government, and the states may add additional rules and penalties.

For example I want to give my favorite gun to a nephew who lives in California. To legally transfer that gun I must first go to a person with a Federal Firearms License

The FFL must send it to another FFL in CA.

Now nephew cannot pick it up unless he has a HANDGUN SAFETY CERTIFICATE

Nephew now goes through the FBI National Instant Criminal Background Check System

NEXT

And on top of all that, he would have to wait ten days to pick it up!

Of course if I ever go back to visit family in California, it wouldn't occur to me to just bring that gun along and had it over to the kid, violating all kinds of laws.

Kinda makes me wonder, who are those mayors fooling?

It is immoral to prevent citizens from access to the best means of protection available.

Sorry Tude.......but to me that is all Yada yada yada, waffle waffle excuses excuses and BS. Not your BS, just a totally mixed up lot of ineffectual rubbish laws and twaddle......especially when you consider the number of innocent American civilians that are dieing.

And funnily enough while you are stressing over the legalities of transferring your gun to your nephew's ownership and all the hurdles involved, the criminals are moving them around wholesale. And to compound the Pythonesque nature of it all, the pro gun lobby's arguement includes the notion that criminals will always be able to get hold of a gun, so all honest citizens need them too.

Crazyness crazyness total crazyness.

recovering conservative · Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:20 am

High Threshold;1461786 wrote:

But what these bleeding hearts fail to understand is the simple fact of life that when you want to kill someone ¦.. you don't need no gun.
And what about "when you do not want to kill someone, but during a heated argument, pull out a gun and threaten someone?

Point being that a gun makes homicide more likely for two reasons:

1. Many people who would physically be incapable of committing murder with a knife or their bare hands, can do it with a gun.

2. The gun offers greater personal detachment from the act of killing than having to actually drive a knife into someone. In the war theatre, it explains why the Vietnam vets with the highest rates of PTSD-related illnesses after the War were the "grunts" who had to engage in hand-to-hand combat; and not the flyboys like John McCain...who killed many more people, but from 10,000 feet up. It's also why the grunts were more likely to be disillusioned by war and patriotic tripe afterwards than the pilots, who remained jingoistic pro-war hawks....McCain again!

Anyways, banning guns is agin' the 5th Amendment. It is the responsibilidy of each and ever American citizen to own and bear firearms at all times.
I didn't notice it corrected; but that's the Second Amendment to the Constitution...not the 5th. And, for years...until so called conservative "constructionists" like Scalia got a hold of it...that right to bear arms was usually interpreted as a right of citizens who are part of "a well regulated militia"...the portion of the 2nd Amendment that rightwingers try to blot out or erase. It's only been very recently that it's been turned iinto a right to go anywhere and everywhere with your gun....except government buildings where these lawmakers conduct their business for some reason!

Basically, without the functionality of guns for the masses, the people of them there United States will internalize they's problems, they will be communists everwhere and the country will turn into a shooting range with people being shot down anywhere and everwhere ¦.. with no way to protect they selves! So y'all jes shut yo selves up, git your nose outa America's bisiness and stay out the way!

I didn't realize you were doing a satirical piece when I started reading..now it makes sense. But, it's worth noting that if we put ourselves in the place of average Americans who live in high crime areas, they may feel they have no choice other than carrying a gun around at all times because of increasing violence...if everyone around you is armed, you might feel the need to be armed as well!

This is the new regime of libertarian do-it-yourself law enforcement! I notice some of the stories today after a resumption of looting in some areas of Ferguson, showed store owners and employees standing outside their stores with guns ready. I'm sure most and likely all shop owners would prefer not to have to live this way, but with the chipping away of infrastructure spending...including on numbers of police, the average citizen is expected to deal with the burglar or the robber or looter in their own way...stand your ground...blah blah blah.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:01 pm

recovering conservative;1462130 wrote: I didn't realize you were doing a satirical piece when I started reading..now it makes sense.

That's good. I was already trying to find a clever way of telling you myself!

recovering conservative;1462130 wrote: But, it's worth noting that if we put ourselves in the place of average Americans who live in high crime areas, they may feel they have no choice other than carrying a gun around at all times because of increasing violence...if everyone around you is armed, you might feel the need to be armed as well!

I don't blame the average American citizen for the guns, guns, guns. The blame goes to the U.S. government and all of their corrupt shenanigans, both at home and abroad. Every bit of it affects the American population in one way or t'other.

Four Part says in another thread about the media & trouble, "the last thing they want is to let it calm down". Why? Because they benefit from it directly. And the same goes for the U.S. government with regards to war and crime.

I've heard too many smoke-screen explanations in my life:

1. "Don't pull out the troops because it will be a signal that those who've already fallen did so in vain."

2. Irak didn't have any WMD's so the invasion was a lie and all of those Irakis who perished were innocent ..... "Yeah, but Saddam was a bad man anyway".

3. A gun fell off the kitchen shelf and shot the Mrs. to death. "Wow! That's awful! Man, we gots to arm ourselves so we can be ready for anything!"

So you saying to me "it's worth noting that if we put ourselves in the place of average Americans ..... " is all very interesting, but it doesn't cut the mustard. It sure does cut the cheese though.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:04 pm

HT

I presumed you had been shot at some time.

And no I didn't realize your OP was sarcastic.

Tude Dog

Why doesn't you nephew get his certificate & buy his own gun?

It seems to be a easier solution for his protection.

Patsy

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:21 pm

Patsy Warnick;1462137 wrote: HT

... no I didn't realize your OP was sarcastic.

Patsy

Not to worry, Patsy. You're at least the third one. My humour is often misunderstood - being cursed with a stern face, as I am. :wah:

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:35 pm

OK

I submit, facts,figurtrtes.

gotcha

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:43 pm

High Threshold;1462140 wrote: Not to worry, Patsy. You're at least the third one. My humour is often misunderstood - being cursed with a stern face, as I am. :wah:

Hello. She can't see your face when you write. When you posted a pic though, I did notice a sly smirk. Kinda cute. IMO.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:49 pm

Interestingly enough, there are laws governing the smuggling & selling of illicit drugs across the borders as well. For some reason this doesn't seem to stop it happening.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:06 pm

AnneBoleyn;1462149 wrote: Hello. She can't see your face when you write. When you posted a pic though, I did notice a sly smirk. Kinda cute. IMO.

:yh_blushI wonder - has some lucky guy already been chosen to escort you to the senior prom?:-6

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:30 am

High Threshold;1462158 wrote: :yh_blushI wonder - has some lucky guy already been chosen to escort you to the senior prom?:-6

My lucky guy is so lucky that he's dead. :yh_cry

Not so lucky I guess.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:32 am

FourPart;1462152 wrote: Interestingly enough, there are laws governing the smuggling & selling of illicit drugs across the borders as well. For some reason this doesn't seem to stop it happening.

Interestingly enough, there are laws governing the murder of another human being & not cleaning up after your dog when it poops on the sidewalk as well. For some reason this doesn't seem to stop it happening.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:49 am

Bruv;1462126 wrote: Sorry Tude.......but to me that is all Yada yada yada, waffle waffle excuses excuses and BS. Not your BS, just a totally mixed up lot of ineffectual rubbish laws and twaddle......especially when you consider the number of innocent American civilians that are dieing.

Innocent people are murdered every day by different means, mostly guns. The other side of the equation is how many lives are saved every year by gun ownership? I wish I had an answer to that but it is literally an impossible question to answer.

Bruv;1462126 wrote: And to compound the Pythonesque nature of it all, the pro gun lobby's arguement includes the notion that criminals are moving them around wholesale.

Not how I would phrase it.

Bruv;1462126 wrote: Crazyness crazyness total crazyness.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:15 am

Patsy Warnick;1462137 wrote: Tude Dog

Why doesn't you nephew get his certificate & buy his own gun?

It seems to be a easier solution for his protection.

Patsy

Sorry, I wasn't clear. This is not about protection.

The particular gun I want to give is something of a collector's item. My nephew is not into guns but sure likes shooting, and good at it.

I haven't offered the gun yet. I only mentioned it here as a point about interstate gun transfers.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:21 pm

tude dog;1462318 wrote: The other side of the equation is how many lives are saved every year by gun ownership?

I wish I had an answer to that but it is literally an impossible question to answer.

Is that protecting themselves against rattle snakes, Grizzlies, or the State Troopers?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:35 pm

tude dog;1462318 wrote: The other side of the equation is how many lives are saved every year by gun ownership?

Have you no self-respect or are you just entertaining us?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:47 pm

Bruv;1462329 wrote: Is that protecting themselves against rattle snakes, Grizzlies, or the State Troopers?

OK

Time to move on.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:44 pm

tude dog;1462333 wrote: OK

Time to move on.

I understand thats what the police tell you before they unholster their firearms.

(You wanna be my straight man?)

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:51 pm

Bruv;1462337 wrote: I understand thats what the police tell you before they unholster their firearms.

(You wanna be my straight man?)

Watch out Bruv---the straight man is paid More!

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:37 pm

AnneBoleyn;1462343 wrote: Watch out Bruv---the straight man is paid More!

But he earns the extra, keeping that straight face all the time.................can't be easy.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:34 pm

Bruv;1462349 wrote: But he earns the extra, keeping that straight face all the time.................can't be easy.

That's the sort of thing that would suit me. I don't do smiling.

In fact one of our former Musical Directors excused me from having to smile on stage as she said that when I smiled it looked as if I was snarling.

marajuana · Post by **marajuana** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Ive been saying this and ill continue to say it "guns dont kill people, people kill people"

Post by **LarsMac** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:51 pm

marajuana;1462353 wrote: Ive been saying this and ill continue to say it "guns dont kill people, people kill people"

Well, true enough. but if you take the guns away from people, they wouldn't kill as many people.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:30 pm

High Threshold;1462331 wrote: Have you no self-respect or are you just entertaining us?

OH, THAT HURT [/sarcasm

hmm, ,

So rather than respond to my statement as to how many times guns are used for personal defense, you choose to question my "self respect".

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:22 am

marajuana;1462353 wrote: Ive been saying this and ill continue to say it "guns dont kill people, people kill people"

I really don't recall anyone EVER having shot someone to death without a gun. Have I been misinformed?

LarsMac;1462355 wrote: Well, true enough. but if you take the guns away from people, they wouldn't kill as many people.

Hmmmmm

that makes sense!

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:30 am

tude dog;1462357 wrote: OH, THAT HURT [/sarcasm

Quit you're belly-aching. It was above the belt.

tude dog;1462357 wrote:

So rather than respond to my statement as to how many times guns are used for personal defense, you choose to question my "self respect".

You mean it was meant to be taken seriously? Oh my. I thought it was[/sarcasm :yh_blush

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:30 am

Actually, guns don't kill people at all. Bullets kill people (unless you use the gun as a club).

The Cause & Effect argument of 'People Kill People', although accurate to a degree, could be taken as far back as you choose to take it - i.e. Parents Kill People (by making the people that make the guns that fire the bullets that kill people) etc. The fact remains that by simply pointing a finger & saying "BANG!" isn't going to kill anyone (except, perhaps, by initiating a heart attack in the victim).

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:58 am

FourPart;1462376 wrote: Actually, guns don't kill people at all. Bullets kill people (unless you use the gun as a club).

The Cause & Effect argument of 'People Kill People', although accurate to a degree, could be taken as far back as you choose to take it - i.e. Parents Kill People (by making the people that make the guns that fire the bullets that kill people) etc. The fact remains that by simply pointing a finger & saying "BANG!" isn't going to kill anyone (except, perhaps, by initiating a heart attack in the victim).

Well, I'm awfully glad you said that because I've been meaning to tell the world the REAL TRUTH for years but I've been too timid to speak up. But now that you've already “gone there I feel confident and courageous enough to spill the beans. Don't be shocked and run into the streets into the path of on-coming cars and stepping off of lofty ledges - but it ain't the gun, the bullet, or even the people what kill. It's the lead. Some straight up, slick and smooth, and other hollow points. Now there's the REAL culprit!

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:44 am

There was a suggest a while back that we need to increase the cost of bullets.

If bullets cost 5000 a piece, people would think twice about putting one in another person, just because they are made at the guy.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:11 am

LarsMac;1462390 wrote: There was a suggest a while back that we need to increase the cost of bullets.

If bullets cost 5000 a piece, people would think twice about putting one in another person, just because they are made at the guy.

Chris Rock.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:54 pm

High Threshold;1462373 wrote: Quit you're belly-aching. It was above the belt.

You mean it was meant to be taken seriously? Oh my. I thought it was[/sarcasm :yh_blush

Stop it, that is bull.

Can't back something up then just STFU.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:38 pm

tude dog;1462396 wrote: Stop it, that is bull.

The "bull" is your insinuation that any positive aspects of gun ownership outwieght the mass-murder hysteria of American "culture".

tude dog;1462396 wrote: Can't back something up then just STFU.

"Can't back it up"? But I just did.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:51 pm

High Threshold;1462410 wrote: The "bull" is your insinuation that any positive aspects of gun ownership outwieght the mass-murder hysteria of American "culture".

You could have stated you disagree and left it at at that.

But no.

What I find fascinating is your assertion of a mass-murder hysteria of American "culture", whatever that means.

Would be nice if you could advance that observation with something relevant to the discussion which would enlighten the rest of us.

High Threshold;1462410 wrote: "Can't back it up"? But I just did.

This is the problem dealing with you, all talk.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:57 pm

tude dog;1462444 wrote: You could have stated you disagree and left it at at that.

I could have, yes, but you did insist .....

tude dog;1462396 wrote: Can't back something up then just STFU.

...... so rather than disapointing the good, fellow FG members by S-ingTFU, I olbiged you with "back up". There's no satisfying you, is there.

tude dog;1462396 wrote: What I find fascinating is your assertion of a mass-murder hysteria of American "culture" ...

I'm so pleased. :yh_love

tude dog;1462444 wrote: Would be nice if you could advance that observation with something relevant to the discussion which would enlighten the rest of us.

Is there something in my reply that you feel is "off topic"? Well, the OP hasn't yet lodged any complaint. Perhaps we ought to ask him what he thinks about it. Hmmmmm?

tude dog;1462444 wrote: This is the problem dealing with you, all talk.

Actually I'm dancing the cha-cha (to Bobby Rydell's hit tune of the 60's) simultaneously ...

... but alas you just can't actually see me. But I can assure you - I'm not merely "talk".

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:40 am

Is there something in my reply that you feel is "off topic"? Well, the OP hasn't yet lodged any complaint. Perhaps we ought to ask him what he thinks about it. Hmmmmm?

cute

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:33 am

tude dog;1462499 wrote: cute

What about Bobby Rydell and the cha-cha?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:36 am

High Threshold;1462506 wrote: What about Bobby Rydell and the cha-cha?

What do you want to know?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:41 am

tude dog;1462507 wrote: What do you want to know?

Well, we can start with if you think it's also cute.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:48 am

We can end with, IDGAS.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:57 am

tude dog;1462509 wrote: We can end with, IDGAS.

"IDGAS"? I Doubt my Gonads Are Sufficient?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:10 pm

High Threshold;1462510 wrote: "IDGAS"? I Doubt my Gonads Are Sufficient?

If that works for you, I'll leave it at that.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:13 pm

tude dog;1462511 wrote: If that works for you, I'll leave it at that.

That's alright. It's nothing for you to be ashamed of.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:14 pm

tude dog;1462509 wrote: We can end with, IDGAS.

You are a grammatical Rolling Stones fan?

"I don't get any satisfaction" ?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:16 am

IDGAS: Means "I Don't Give A S**t"

PS--Love Bobby Rydell

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:44 am

AnneBoleyn;1462550 wrote: IDGAS: Means "I Don't Give A S**t"

Not according to Larry. He admitted it was the one about his insufficient gonads.

AnneBoleyn;1462550 wrote: PS--Love Bobby Rydell

You too? He was one those with Freddy Canon, Bobby Vee, Paul Anka, Neil Sedaka, Bobby Darin, Dion and the Belmonts, Ricky Nelson and several others who used to rock the house.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:46 am

Neil Sedaka went to my high school--years before me. His parents owned a hot dog stand at the beginning of the boardwalk of Brighton Beach. It was called "Sedacca's" which must be the original spelling. Now that part of the street is called "Sedaka Way". Neil Diamond also went to my high school, again years before me. His parents owned a "schmata", a women's apron store, on Brighton Beach Avenue, parallel to the beach. It was called "Diamonds". The Tokens also went to my high school, again a few years before me. My friend's mother played Mah Jong with their mothers & kept us all up to date. Nearby, but not my high school, lived Carole King and her boyfriend, Gerry Goffin, I think they lived on Ocean Parkway which leads to Brighton Beach. Neil Sedaka was their friend.

Dion came from "da" Bronx, Belmont Avenue, the Italian section. I think Bobby Darin lived there too, not sure.