What's wrong with religion?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:05 pm

Religion will always be a scapegoat to ones own irrationality as long as we all disagree on what religion should be.

charles_r51 · Post by **charles_r51** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:23 pm

Lulu2 wrote: Short of just happily hijacking a thread, what's the purpose of these last posts? Perhaps you can explain how this relates to the original topic?

it's a matter of dispute which can and does reflect what people are thinking, not whether it's germain. taking thought of one idea, without adressing others which are affected by it, denies it as important to other's views. i may not agree with any position, or i may agree with all positions, but what of those who have not decided what view to take?:-4 :-4 :-4

charles_r51 · Post by **charles_r51** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:26 pm

K.Snyder wrote: Religion will always be a scapegoat to ones own irrationality as long as we all disagree on what religion should be.

not a scapegoat, but a point of dispute. religion has many aspects. we only explore some, and therein is the disagreement.:-4 :-4 :-4

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:40 pm

I'm flying to Alberta tomorrow for a week. I will be back on sometime after Sept. 15. Retired life is somewhat like a holiday but I'll take this one anyway.

The only problem with retirement is I'm not sure how I got everything done while I was gainfully employed. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:16 pm

charles_r51 wrote: it's a matter of dispute which can and does reflect what people are thinking, not whether it's germain. taking thought of one idea, without adressing others which are affected by it, denies it as important to other's views. i may not agree with any position, or i may agree with all positions, but what of those who have not decided what view to take?:-4 :-4 :-4

You said it so well........Taking thought of one idea (your religion) without addressing others which are affected by it, denies it as important to other's views.

I am quite sure that if there is a God...................he is turning over in his heaven for what mankind has wrought upon each other in HIS name. Afterall, most religions believe in the one God no matter what we call it.

charles_r51 · Post by **charles_r51** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:10 am

nvalleyvee wrote: You said it so well........Taking thought of one idea (your religion) without addressing others which are affected by it, denies it as important to other's views.

I am quite sure that if there is a God...................he is turning over in his heaven for what mankind has wrought upon each other in HIS name. Afterall, most religions believe in the one God no matter what we call it.

i don't think he's turning over in his heaven, just waiting for people to wake up to what he created. when, not if, it happens, we may be rather surprised at our ignorance and why it took so long.:-4 :-4 :-4

charles_r51 · Post by **charles_r51** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:11 am

Ted wrote: I'm flying to Alberta tomorrow for a week. I will be back on sometime after Sept. 15. Retired life is somewhat like a holiday but I'll take this one anyway.

The only problem with retirement is I'm not sure how I got everything done while I was gainfully employed. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

have a good trip.:driving: :-4

charles_r51 · Post by **charles_r51** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:45 pm

nvalleyvee wrote: You said it so well........Taking thought of one idea (your religion) without addressing others which are affected by it, denies it as important to other's views.

I am quite sure that if there is a God...................he is turning over in his heaven for what mankind has wrought upon each other in HIS name. Afterall, most religions believe in the one God no matter what we call it.

didn't i reply already? i thought i did, but now i'm beginning to wonder!:-2 :-2 :-4

goliah · Post by **goliah** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:32 pm

Maybe just about everything!

To comprehend what's wrong with religion ask a simple question. What does every mono theistic tradition have in common? The problem starts with that very slippery word called 'truth'. Five thousand years on and three mono-theisms later, the secular world has evolved a conception for knowledge that is usually associated with science. Truth being knowledge that demonstrates it own efficacy.

The answer to the first question. Religious tradition has yet to offer any path of faith that can confirm their historical claims. The trappings of tradition usually hide that fact away as deeply as possible. And that 's what makes for the friction, even antagonism, between science and religion.

Now, some unkown author has gone and reinterpreted the moral teachings of Christ is such a way as to fit the modern scientific criteria. A testable proof for faith. That also means a testable proof of God. Something thought to be impossible? If this gets going, and proves itself to be true, it could very well bring down the whole of religious history. And it won't make a lot of scientists very happy either!

Very serious stuff for those that can handle it? Check these links to join a revolution:

http://www.energon.uklinux.net

http://thefinalfreedoms.bulldoghome.com

weber · Post by **weber** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:44 pm

Hi, I'm David!

Are you Goliath with a misspelling

goliah · Post by **goliah** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:42 pm

This may be an 'inconvenient 'truth' but this represents an entirely new paradigm in our conception and understanding of religion. I quote from a review of the marterial I found:

'This new teaching is pure ethics. It requires no institutional framework, no churches, no priest craft, no scholastic theological rational, no dogma or doctrine, costs nothing and ‘worship’ requires only conviction, faith and the necessary measure of self discipline to accomplish a new, single moral imperative and then the integrity and fidelity to the new reality.'

This is no joke, no hoax.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:49 pm

goliah:-6

I've seen this site before. I've read all of the intro and some of the "teachings".

It is always interesting to me when after thousands of years someone comes along with the "final truth". I have also learned enough in my 63 years to know that anyone who proposes they have it all in hand and have the final truth, are living in a delusion.

We live in a multicultural world that this writer seems to forget. Not everyone is a Christian nor are they about to be come one.

The Bible being midrashic for the most part of if you like parable, that presents profound truths, is not nor ever was meant to be read literally in any way. I also notice he begins this "truth" with the same sickening patriarchal nonsense that the woman was the problem. In fact it shows a literal interpretation of a myth.

What he is proposing is a world much like "1984". He is welcome to it. Most people would want no part of it.

In short, its garbage.

Shalom

Ted

weinbeck · Post by **weinbeck** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:05 pm

Ted wrote: koan:-6

I have to strongly disagree that religion has not made the world better place. I can list many successes that have come out of a religious faith.

Of course there are problems. Wherever you have religious extremists you have problems whether in Christianity, Islam or any other.

I would suggest that the world would be in worse shape if it were not for religous faith.

A few examples: ACTS=African technical survey. This group has supplied fresh water systems in many town that had no potable water, free of charge.

The Anglican PWRDF fund has supplied hundreds of thousands of dollars to world wide problem, once again free of change and free of proselytization.

The churches of the world have supplied millions of dollars and manpower to help the victims of the sunami.

Churches run soup kitchens and shelters for the homeless.

The salvation army is well known for its work both in prisons and society.

I could go on and on but that should suffice.

Could we do better? Sure we could if we had more manpower.

Have the churches made mistakes? Certainly but they are trying to write the wrongs of the past.

It was Bishop Hambidge of the Anglican Church that was instrumental in the Nisga'a' land treaty and the improvement of this group.

I would suggest that instead of folks bitching and complaining about the church that they put their money and their skills where their mouth is. Far too many think it is someone else's job but they do like to criticize.

We don't go around tooting our own horn because we are too busy doing a very difficult job that others don't seem to think are important or might cost them some money.

Charity is not the answer, but a stop gap measure. The real answer lies in justice for all people around the world. So as to how can we make it better, oppose injustice wherever it is found whether locally or in some other country. Support those like the churches that do oppose injustice.

Shalom

Ted:-6

"To fight injustice is to fight the wind." It's an old Chinese saying that is very true. Ted, it is IMPOSSIBE to fight everybody's battle. There will always be injustice in the world and poverty to go with it, and let's face it, there's damn all we can do about it.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:16 pm

weinbeck:-6

I understand what you are saying. I think in some ways you are correct. However, as Christians we are called to fight injustice wherever it raises its ugly head. We may not always be successful but at least we can say we tried.

Right now the disparity between the rich and poor is getting ever greater. If something is done in a constuctive manner than folks will take it into their own hands as groups within nations and as nations. This of course is not new. It is what Jesus faced during his lifetime.

Here in British Columbia a former Anglican Bishop, Hambidge, was instrumental in resolving a great injustice. He shamed the federal and provinical governments into dealing in good faith with the Nis'ga treaty and thus brought about some justice. It can be done but it takes courage and drive.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:24 pm

koan wrote: In this poll it is decidedly voted by FG members that religion has failed to make the world a better place.

Why?

What are some potential explanations? What are some proposed solutions?

People are the problem with religion, and perversly people are also the solution. Do not expect a complete solution until there is nothing left worth fighting over, we have nothing left to lose, and there is subsequetly a sudden outbreak of brotherly love between whoever is left. Until of course conditions improve again and they all start arguing about who is best, or who loves god more again.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:38 pm

Galbally:-6

You forgot one. My God is better that your god. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:50 pm

Ted wrote: Galbally:-6

You forgot one. My God is better that your god. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Sorry, being a Catholic I thought it was obvious that God is Irish.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:46 pm

Galbally:-6

I love it. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:27 pm

Well southern Irish anyway, as long as he's not from Cork! :wah:

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:44 pm

Galbally:-6

Before we moved from eastern Ontario to an island off the coast of British Columbia both the family doctor we had and his wife were from Ireland. One was from the north and the other from the south. They were absolutely wonderful people.

Shalom

Ted:-6

goliah · Post by **goliah** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:17 am

Having gone through most stages of 'religious' illusion in my own 55 years and ended up as a leftie, activist, agnostic, I'm more than aware of all the pitfalls of religious self-deception. Even being an athiest is just a response to the intellectual vaccuousness of tradition. At the same time I am only too aware that the world faces problems well beyond what our politics, ethics and knowledge can resolve. But having read through this material, this is of a different order. The very idea of a testable proof is hard to get ones head around. I not suggesting anyone take my word for it, but it is a very profound read for anyone willing to make the effort. Religion has become an easy target for criticism and all for good reason, doing something about it, exposing the fraud, to take on history itself is a greater challenge. Yet this may be the means for doing just that?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:32 am

Perhaps the problem is not religon per se but monotheistic religon. it inculcates a world view where there is a higher power that all must look up to that power and authority come down from above and should not be questioned.

Freedom, democracy, republic, rule by all having a say and having equal value, are all pagan concepts, instinctively egalitarian and owe nothing to any of the monotheoistic religons from the middle east.

I would suggest that the peoples of what are now the western democracies have an instinctively egalitarian streak in their nature that makes them reject the concept of rule from above.

If all are equal before god then all should be equal on earth is an interpretaion that was applied when they reached what was once the pagan west. If you reject the authority of the church then you also reject the authority of the rulers. If a king was god's anointed then to defy him was to defy god. Thank goodness-or god even, for those that had the sense to say **** off I can make up my own mind and no I don't believe in the divine rule of kings.

No wonder rulers grabbed on to it as a means to control their people. That's why there are so many schisms in the christian church it is basically against our nature to accept the authorty of others without question.

So if you value your freedom don't thank any monotheistic religon thank those that reject the fundamental flaw.

Monotheism is it against natural instinct?

charles_r51 · Post by **charles_r51** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:47 am

Galbally wrote: Well southern Irish anyway, as long as he's not from Cork! :wah:

from cork? you mean the bottles should stay open all night? no irish is any good with cork in the way.

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:47 am

There's nothing wrong with religion. There's lots wrong with people

charles_r51 · Post by **charles_r51** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:01 am

weber wrote: There's nothing wrong with religion. There's lots wrong with people

sure there's something wrong with religion! the pope said so whne he claimed everyone but catholics go to he**. i know its not nice to be a judge, so why didn't he? condemnation is not the way to solve anything, it only causes friction. whether it's between two people, two families, two religions, two nation, nothing can ever be resolved if both parties cannot find a commonality upon which to build rather than tear down.

only when a single commonality is built upon can anything be built and be a lasting testament to those who started the process.

it need not be anything big, nor something which is resolute, just something so simple as to be a basis of agreement.

a single thing often becomes the greatest achievement. it's like a lightbulb. turn it on and see what you've been missing.:-4 :-4

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:02 am

weber wrote: There's nothing wrong with religion. There's lots wrong with people

Well then, that's about the end of this thread then isn't it? (rhetorical)

charles_r51 · Post by **charles_r51** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:09 am

K.Snyder wrote: Well then, that's about the end of this thread then isn't it? (rhetorical)

maybe, but i doubt whether it'll go unchallenged by the archdiocese of las veags, nevada.:yh_pumpkn :yh_worshp

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:44 am

charles_r51 wrote: sure there's something wrong with religion! the pope said so whne he claimed everyone but catholics go to he**. i know its not nice to be a judge, so why didn't he? condemnation is not the way to solve anything, it only causes friction. whether it's between two people, two families, two religions, two nation, nothing can ever be resolved if both parties cannot find a commonality upon which to build rather than tear down.

only when a single commonality is built upon can anything be built and be a lasting testament to those who started the process.

it need not be anything big, nor something which is resolute, just something so simple as to be a basis of agreement.

a single thing often becomes the greatest achievement. it's like a lightbulb. turn it on and see what you've been missing.:-4 :-4

Charles

The pope did not say that everyone but chtholics go to he**. That is a misinterpretation. People very often hear what they want to hear rather than what is said. The pope doesn't condemn or judge anybody. He is no different than we are in this respect of having our own opinions.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:46 am

There is a LOT wrong with religion! And here are 18 pages about it. :wah:

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:47 am

Lulu2 wrote: There is a LOT wrong with religion! And here are 18 pages about it. :wah:

It's 19 pages now Lulu

And they are all about people and their opinions about religion, not about religion itself.:-6

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:51 am

What? Religion was created by people. Are you saying it existed before human consciousness? Because, if that's the case, there would only be ONE idea of it and we all know that's not so.

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:59 am

Lulu2 wrote: What? Religion was created by people. Are you saying it existed before human consciousness? Because, if that's the case, there would only be ONE idea of it and we all know that's not so.

Actually yes I would say that. Religion is all about God and God was before our consciousness.

So if people created religion, then it started as something and then it is talked about as opinions of people. I really don't understand your logic. Religion had to start somewhere and developed and people have their opinions about it.

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:11 am

Diuretic wrote: The really terrible thing about religion is how it holds back humanity from achieving its potential. It's not the only thing that does that but we're talking about what's wrong with religion aren't we?

Why would you say that religion holds people back from achieving their potential. People hold themselves back from achieving their potential. Nothing can hold people back but themselves. Religion may try to do as you speak, but it can only do what we allow.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:12 am

"Religion" originated in the fear and ignorance of primitive people. It's always been a wonderful excuse for anything mysterious or manipulative. It's as imperfect as any other human creation.

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:20 am

Lulu2 wrote: "Religion" originated in the fear and ignorance of primitive people. It's always been a wonderful excuse for anything mysterious or manipulative. It's as imperfect as any other human creation.

We don't live in fear and ignorance and are not primitive anymore so we can't use those things as an excuse for where we are now. Religion may be imperfect but unless you can come up with something better, you really have nothing to say,. The only mystery in religion is why people who don't want it can't leave it alone. If they really didn't want it, they would just leave it alone.

Katy1 · Post by **Katy1** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:23 am

I was going to join in this discussion before I read the thread properly, but damn it Lulu...you've said everything that I could have wanted to say and more. Bravo.

:-6 :yh_worshp :yh_clap

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:54 am

I believe the title of this thread is "what's wrong with religion?" I've given my opinion.

I'll also add that the primitive part of our brain (the "old" brain) still lives in fear and ignorance much of the time. Psychiatrists make livings dealing with those issues, do they not?

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:05 am

Lulu2 wrote: I believe the title of this thread is "what's wrong with religion?" I've given my opinion.

I'll also add that the primitive part of our brain (the "old" brain) still lives in fear and ignorance much of the time. Psychiatrists make livings dealing with those issues, do they not?

I don't operate from any primitive part of my brain that might be there. We are no longer primitive unless of course a person chooses to revert to that. Religion as far as I can see is an organized structure that if it is torn down will simply be replaced with something worse and more than likely primitive. I'll stick with religion and use my developed brain to deal with its problems. Religion is good.... whatever replaces probably will not be.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:22 am

charles_r51 wrote: from cork? you mean the bottles should stay open all night? no irish is any good with cork in the way.

I kinda meant County Cork, but the other meaning has some relevance here I suppose! :wah:

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:24 am

No offence, Weber, but I submit that we all are operating with parts of the "old" brain throughout the day. Freud discusses common threads of fear which run through all human cultures. The word "primitive" is NOT a negative...it merely means closest to the original.

Edited to add THANKS for the link, Diuretic...."Believing in God is like believing in a teapot orbiting Mars" :wah: He'll be lucky if someone doesn't declare a fatwa against him!

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:43 am

Lulu2 wrote: No offence, Weber, but I submit that we all are operating with parts of the "old" brain throughout the day. Freud discusses common threads of fear which run through all human cultures. The word "primitive" is NOT a negative...it merely means closest to the original.

Lulu

You couldn't offend me. I just took a break and realized that there is more than one meaning to religion. I am talking about one and you are talking about the other......at least that is what it looks like to me. I am a religious person....I have religion....I believe in God....I know the bible and follow it within reason to my beliefs - my beliefs - not the beliefs of anybody else - my beliefs arising from my experiences, my life. I believe in God....I try to be as much like Jesus as I can because His life portrays the way I want to be. I follow the bible within reason.... my reason, not the reason of any organized religion/church. What I am saying is that I believe in God and as far as I can see, every person believes in some God in some way, whatever it is a person chooses to follow. That to me is religion and I can see nothing wrong with that religion..

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:51 am

Weber, I'm talking about organized religion. That system which leads people to die in "holy" wars, which deceives them while growing fat on their contributions and which can be as corrupt as organized crime.

ARgi · Post by **ARgi** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:55 am

the original question: what's wrong with religion?

i think the answer is:

when people rely on in it instead of forming their own opinions. in a word...dogma.

ARgi · Post by **ARgi** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:57 am

Lulu2 wrote: Weber, I'm talking about organized religion. That system which leads people to die in "holy" wars, which deceives them while growing fat on their contributions and which can be as corrupt as organized crime.

ie ...when religion becomes an excuse for human interests, not the allegedly divine ones.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:14 pm

weber wrote: Lulu

You couldn't offend me. I just took a break and realized that there is more than one meaning to religion. I am talking about one and you are talking about the other......at least that is what it looks like to me. I am a religious person....I have religion....I believe in God....I know the bible and follow it within reason to my beliefs - my beliefs - not the beliefs of anybody else - my beliefs arising from my experiences, my life. I believe in God....I try to be as much like Jesus as I can because His life portrays the way I want to be. I follow the bible within reason.... my reason, not the reason of any organized religion/church. What I am saying is that I believe in God and as far as I can see, every person believes in some God in some way, whatever it is a person chooses to follow. That to me is religion and I can see nothing wrong with that religion..

Good for you...:yh_flower